{"municipality_id":"albany-county/bethlehem","meeting_id":"granicus-2404","meeting_date":"2026-01-06","text":"Thank you. Debbie, are you ready? Okay. Good evening and welcome to the January 6th meeting of the Bethlehem Planning Board. These proceedings are being recorded and will be made available both live and recordings on the town's website after the meeting. Let the record show we do have a quorum and the meeting is called to order at 6 o'clock. I do want to just mention we have two items this evening for public comment. the first one is the Kimmy point residential subdivision and then we have the zoning law and subdivision regulation update we are going to go back to the way that we were doing public comments for the zoning and based on some comments we received at our last meeting so we will have our board discussion and then we'll have a time at the end of the discussion for public comment so just a note so first I'm going to call Kimmy point to see if there's anyone this evening that would like to provide comments on the Kimmy Point project. If so, there's a microphone. We'd be happy to have you come up. Hi, I'm Barbara Silber at 4 Brightonwood Road. I don't know if this should be the second or the first, but Kimmy Point is the one with 99 single-family homes. Is that correct? Well, I don't know why they get single-family homes, and we're going to have strip malls and apartment houses, and I don't think that's correct because if it looks good on paper, does not translate into real life. And I also want to remind you folks that there's no trucking permitted on Furebush Road. So please keep that in mind when stores are going to be built if his plan goes through because it's not good. Thank you. Thank you. Anyone else for the Kimmy Point subdivision this evening? Oh, good evening. I'm Jim Modney on Dover Drive, which is pretty close to the proposed Kimmy Point thing. I just want to make a general statement about Kimmy Road itself. Hopefully you all should keep in mind that Kimmy Road should be built first rather than at the last part of a new development that's going in to prevent construction trucks and so on from going through neighborhoods that are nearby. Excuse me, sir. Could I just ask you to pull the mic up a little bit and speak into it? I want to hear what you're saying. Okay. Thank you so much. Hello, can you hear me now? Okay, can you hear me now? Anyway, I was saying that I hope you all bear in mind that Kimmy Road should be constructed at the beginning of a project rather than at the end of a project to prevent construction trucks and so on from coming through existing neighborhoods to build these new developments. I know when the Hamden Road's development was proposed between our neighborhood and what now is going to be this new neighborhood. The original idea there was that Kimmy Road wouldn't be built until kind of near the end of the process, which means that our neighborhood would have borne the brunt of all the construction trucks and so on. So I know Kimmy Road is supposed to be built in segments over time as new neighborhoods come in. But if the town could develop that road first, rather than allowing, you know, requiring the developers to make it, I think it might relieve pressure on the surrounding neighborhoods. And of course, the other comment I want to make is lower density housing is preferable to us to keep in character with the existing neighborhood, Dover Drive, Haswell Farms, you know, et cetera. We would certainly prefer that to keep the neighborhood vibe intact. So those are my comments. Thank you. Thank you very much. I'm Andrea Modney, that man's wife. We've lived on Dover Drive for 38 years and when When we moved in, it was a lovely, rural-feeling community. I think that's why probably most people choose to come to Bethlehem for the character of the town, which has gracious lawns, trees, quiet neighborhoods for the kids to play in, walk your dog. When the neighborhood next door to ours, Stone something, Stonyfield, went in, we were assured that Dover Drive would not be a main access road and we wouldn't see a change in traffic. Everyone would come in through Bain, we were assured. All the construction trucks would come in through Bain, we were assured, which is very, it's about a block long street. But in fact, since that neighborhood, which also was connected with Haswell Farms, so now we have hundreds of towns, hundreds of homes connected to our street, and believe me, they do come through. Every time some new construction happens, we see huge flatbed trucks full of lumber from Lowe's, concrete mixers coming in, all the workers that work with those concerns, lumber, tree care companies with their huge trucks. They all come down Down Dover, furniture delivery trucks, everybody comes down Dover. I walk the neighborhood frequently. I see far fewer trucks using Bain than I see coming down Dover just out my front window all day long. So we were sure that wouldn't happen, but it did happen. And now there's talk of putting another neighborhood, Kimmy Point, because sometimes it sounds like a rumor and other times it sounds like a plan to connect that new proposed neighborhood through the existing neighborhoods. It'll sort of be a nightmare. We're talking, oh, I don't know how much more traffic, but you can imagine it's considerable. And all those service trucks and construction trucks that have been coming through, there'll be even more of them. And besides that, it just stands to reason that people will use Dover Drive if you're coming from the west, headed towards angle down the south, they're going to come down Dover. And I reference again the fact that people come to Del Mar for the beauty of the neighborhood, not to watch it turn into Colony, which was once a residential bedroom community, and now it's all chopped into pieces from commercial development. It's a very hectic, very different place than it was. 30 years ago. I would hate that to happen to Bethlehem and we would lose all the charm of our town. And one other thing, I've been reading in the spotlight and other places that the town is trying to quiet the speeding that's going on through town around Murray Avenue and a couple other places they put in speed bumps. If we connect the whole town with this Kimmy Drive, There'll be even more speeding the more connectivity the more speeding is kind of counterproductive to good and faster thoroughfares while Trying to slow Tempt for the speed of the traffic If those are my points, thank you. Thank you for your comments good afternoon my name is eric rider i live at 55 boylston drive del mar three quick points the first point uh sadly i still don't get noticed of meetings i'm uh signed up through the town website uh click the the box for uh noticed of meetings still don't get noticed of meetings It's unfortunate. It's either broken or I'm taking off the system In terms of Kimmy point it appears That Kimmy Drive is wholly contained now within the Kimmy point subdivision My question is and I'm hoping that the planning board can make this abundantly clear is would Kimmy point ever connect to Hamden Woods. It does not appear that way from the, I believe, what's proposed. But I don't think it's fair for the public to, you know, not have a clear and transparent picture of what could potentially happen in the future. So if it never connects, then I'd like to comment on that but if there's ever a potential for connection I think the board should be very transparent on what that could look like so we could have a fair assessment of and comment on that and then thirdly I still oppose the rezoning of Hampton Woods to mixed density I do not think it fits within the character of Laurelana Heights and we should be consistent there to minimize all of the impacts of to our neighborhood everything will come through lower Atlanta Heights if if it's constructed thank you can you get lower you can hold the whole black part and lower the whole thing down right below the lower closer to the microphone that black piece yeah that's a lot easier okay thank you hi my My name is Lily. I live over on Village Drive. This is my first time going to a meeting or speaking, but when I saw what the notes were, I was curious. I just have several points in terms of seeing the recent developments grow and just the increased traffic that's already kind of being seen and just if there's consideration on improved public transportation, how that would look like, and also in general, if wildlife is being taken into consideration with the growing increases of these developments, as well as on the sheet, it's noted that it's 99 single-family homes. The size of homes seem to be getting bigger when family sizes are generally getting smaller. And it's nice when you go around towns and you notice that there are duplexes within communities, there are apartments in communities as well as single-family homes, so that then increases the diversity of the people, if that's one of the benefits that we're looking for when we are creating new developments. And yeah, so in addition of maintaining wildlife so that populations of different varieties of animals that we do enjoy also be able to keep some of their homes. Thank you. Thank you. Hi, my name is Phil. You got to raise the microphone for us. The black right underneath. No, next to that one. Pull up. And again, we're asking for public comment on Kimmy Point project only at this point. Okay, well, mine's kind of both. Okay, if you could keep your comments to Kimmy Point, then we'll go on to the next project when we get there. Thank you. Okay. And can you identify yourself? Phil Stevens for Holbrook Way. It was quoted in the spotlight that when you have multifamily units. Phil, sorry. You have to look at the microphone. You can't look down or else the microphone doesn't connect. Okay, sorry. It was quoted in the spotlight that when you have multifamily units, the trip pattern is different because it consists of retirees and young professionals that work at home. My question is, what study supports that statement? And isn't it a large risk to assume that only retirees and young professionals will live in these dwellings? And again, as previously mentioned by other residents, The town cannot dictate what the developer will charge for these units. So who is to believe there will be affordable housing? Just talking about affordable housing, looking at Zillow today, 25% of the houses for sale are under $300,000. 50% of the houses for sale are under $500,000. dollars. This development occurs in Eagle and Glenmont Elementary School territory. So does a lot of the zoning changes. Currently, both of these schools are full, and the district is looking at three options to relocate students from Eagle and Glenmont Elementary to other schools. Each plan calls for relocation, currently, of about 150 children. That's before the development. How does adding 125 homes between Kimmy Point and Hamden Woods help the situation? How does changing the zoning alleviate this situation? How is it the town can state in the December 31st Spotlight article that the volume of Fairbush Road corridor remains stable since 2015 when the schools on each end of it have increased registrations and have reached full capacity. Shouldn't a school district be involved in this forum? Wetlands. This is a copy. If you look at the red, that is the wetlands in this development. It kind of looks like Eddie Van Halen's guitar with all the red. I'm just surprised that that's what we've come to here. Shortcuts and traffic study. Developing Kimmy Point would create additional traffic and shortcuts that will affect Haswell Farms and the Fairbush Corridor. Traffic from Carriage Hill, Heritage Manor, and the Enclave, en route to Fairbush Road, the Bypass, the Middle School, Delroy Avenue, and Route 85 Corridor. Hamden Woods will become a shortcut through Lower Ono Heights for Kimmy Point and the Enclave to get to the Town Park, the high school, and Eagle Elementary. If you don't believe it, come in our neighborhood and watch what happens on Bain Road. You have two minutes left for comments. Okay. Where is the quality control if the developer is hiring the traffic consultant? why can't we take more time to concentrate on improving the town structure before we take such a big step once the cat gets out of the box it's going to be hard to put it back in let's work with our school district so that everyone is in step with the growth and expansion here let's choose a development that does not affect existing wetlands there's plenty of land here. There's plenty of corridors. When you're looking at changing the zoning and you talk about senior housing, let's put it in a place where we know there's buses and a bus route and stores, not in the middle of nowhere, in residential neighborhoods, please. Upgrade stormwater systems in the enclave of La Launa Heights that have had issues in the past before we build around them and increase their volume. Well documented. I've documented and a lot of my neighbors have about the stormwater there. And finally, provide our neighborhood with quality water as it is consistently being treated and creating a bunch of calcium buildup in our neighborhood. So just if we can improve what we have now and then take a step back and then make the next step to grow. Thank you. Anyone else here this evening for Kimmy Point? And again, keep in mind, we will have a public comment for these zoning at the end of the meeting after our discussion. All right, moving on. Next is minutes approval. This evening, we're looking at our minutes from the meeting of Tuesday, December 16th. Can I have a motion and a second to approve those minutes? So moved. First by Scott. Second by Gianna. All in favor? Aye. Aye. The meeting minutes are approved. Thank you. So next up this evening is the board discussion of the Kimmy point residential subdivision I will turn it over to Leslie when she's ready Okay. So tonight we have Kimmy Point subdivision at 548 Elm Avenue in Selkirk on the agenda for an update. This is an application for a conservation subdivision. It was last on the planning board's agenda on January 21st of 2025, and that was the initial presentation and also the seeker coordinator review. This is a proposal for 99 single-family homes on 63.87 acres. This is Elm Avenue here. this is the enclave neighborhood here to the east and I will give it over to the applicant to come up and give us give the board an update thank you okay good evening Scott Lansing with Lansing engineering representing Jericho acres LLC and Barbera homes and development as was mentioned we were before this board about a year ago when we did present at the last meeting and in my opinion I feel the project was received well it was at 108 units at that particular time we the application was brought into the town right about at the same time where the DEC regulations had changed so on the the prior application as far as wetlands we had 4.89 acres of Army Corps of engineer wetlands DEC was changing the regulations taking jurisdiction and over many more wetland areas and applying buffers what the project now has is 7.23 acres of New York State DEC wetlands and 27.36 acres of New York State DEC adjacent areas and we we Gain this information over the course of the past year to take us quite some time to Get an answer back from DEC get a jurisdictional determination do a delineation have meetings with them and Also for the general permit that the DEC is working on for that to advance as well So we have this evening is a revised plan from the previous plan that we presented About a year ago and this this current plan we work with the wetlands we work with the new DEC wetlands We work with the buffers that the DEC requires along with those wetlands. And we also work within the guidelines that the DEC does outline in New York State DEC, GP0-25-006, which is their impact and mitigation worksheet. So they have issued a worksheet that outlines the size of your parcel, the amount of wetlands that you have, the amount of buffers that you have. and then that does prescribe maximum limits that you can have for direct wetland impacts and buffer impacts also before we get into the plans I just want to mention that every plan both of the plans that we have this evening do fall below those thresholds and the plan that the applicant wishes to advance with falls below that more so than the the conventional plan so I just wanted to do that as a kind of a precursor to where we were and how how we got here this evening so as far as the overall project we're 63.87 acres the town does have calculations for base density on a project we subtract out the federal state wetlands we subtract out slopes greater than 20% and there's also a gas easement on the on the parcel so we end up with a net unconstrained buildable land of 56.11 acres town code does outline three three acres per unit I'm sorry three units per acre so that brings us up to 160 160 units so obviously that's a very high number it's based strictly off calculations and not based off of what the what the parcel can actually yield so what I have behind me here is a conventional layout so the town does require that you take and apply the underlying zoning requirements which is RA residential a take those lot areas put that do a layout put that on the parcel and come up with a number of lots that are yielded by that conventional layout. And that conventional layout, again, that does follow the New York State DEC impact and mitigation worksheet in that they allow up to 7.23 acres of, I'm sorry, they allow up to 0.39 acres of direct wetland impacts and 13.31 acres of buffer impacts. So the conventional plan that we have put together does fall below those thresholds, and we came up with 86 lots on that particular layout. So from there, we then took a look at zoning code section 125-51-E-1-A-1, which is a tier one density incentive that can be applied to the project. We did take a look at that. We are able to meet the criteria of 40 percent of the preservation of not less than 40 percent of the gross land. that's in the conservation cluster subdivision. We do meet and exceed that. Where 40% is required, we are providing 43. So we feel that we meet all the requirements for the Tier 1, as we did on the previous application. So that does permit us to apply an additional 15% or 13 lots to the project. And that's how we get from the 86 to the 99 lots that we have. So with that, we take that number of lots and we put together a cluster conservation subdivision layout, which is on the screen at this time. And I would like to just mention that this is a mixed residential project. So there was a comment by a member of the public about potentially having different types of units within a project. We do have a mix of both single family and twin homes within this project. For the twin homes, we have 32 twin home lots or 16 great lots. So there would be one building on one overall lot. There would be a split down the middle, so there would be two units, which creates the twin home, the two-family home. That's on the western portion of the parcel out by Elm. Those are 5,500-square-foot lots minimum, 42 feet minimum width for each one of those individual units. And there's setbacks associated with that as well that the town code does require. Of note each one of those units are proposed to have two car garages So two cars in the garage two cars behind so basically four spaces per per unit So those are the the twin homes as far as the single-family we are proposing 67 single-family lots they're in kind of the central northern and eastern portions of the of the parcel Those are 8,500 square foot lots minimum, 72-foot minimum lot width, and setbacks associated with those for the town code, and then also two-car garages. So as I mentioned, both plans are below the DEC thresholds for direct wetland impacts and buffer impacts. I would just note on this particular plan where the impact and mitigation worksheet allows up to 0.39 acres. We have 0.28 acres where they allow up to 13.31 of adjacent area impacts, acres of adjacent area impacts. We are 10.37. So we're significantly lower than the requirements and within those requirements. That keeps us within the general permit. With that, there is a mitigation that's required for those impacts, so replication of wetlands, creation of new wetlands. And that requirement is 0.56 acres. So where we have 0.21, I'm sorry, 0.28 acres of direct wetland impacts, we'll be creating 0.56 acres of wetlands to replace those wetlands. So I just wanted to outline that for the board. As far as parking on the site, we meet and exceed all the parking requirements. Again, I believe the town code is two spaces per unit. We're four spaces by the time you get the two spaces in the garage and the two spaces behind the garage. we are proposing public water public sewer storm water is is managed on site all one of the the bigger items of the project and what I think is a benefit for the project is first off the the connection points we have approximately 6,966 linear feet of town road that we are proposing we do have connection points on multiple areas out on out on LMAB and then both both connection points on the eastern and southeastern sections of note is the collector road this has been a goal of the town i believe for many years and linkage studies to provide a collector road there was provisions for collector road from the enclave heading this way previous applications did have a small section of this collector road included as a part of the project but the application as presented this evening does show the collector road going all the way out to to LMAP we feel that this is a significant benefit again this is something that the town has been pushing for for quite some time it also does allow this to be done in in one shot in that previously we were going to connect I'm sorry construct a small section another project to the north was going to do another small section and I believe a third project even third further to the north was to create the last section of that so this enables the the town to have this collector road put in in in one shot and my understanding is that also helps with it with the dec as far as permitting dec with a collector road or something of this nature does want to see all of the impacts associated with that so if you have three separate projects three separate owners the ability to ascertain those impacts and present those to the DC are harder than one applicant bringing that in and presenting that in providing that to the to the DC the collector would also provides alternative access routes for the Enclave and Halls Hallswell farm neighborhoods and last but not least we do have excuse me pedestrian connectivity in that as a part of this proposal we are proposing a sidewalk along the collector road all the way from the enclave going all the way along that roadway all the way out to to elm ave so this um again we feel this is a significant benefit uh for the town uh but this is a significant cost to the developer obviously 1,262 linear feet which is that section in the middle uh that's that comes at a significant cost to the developer as far as the it also it also adds impacts and s also adds direct wetland impacts as buffer impacts how those are things that we have to communicate with dec get a permit from dec we have to mitigate all those impacts and that that comes at a cost to the developer also we have less lots in the project where before we had 108 lots this has been reduced down to 99 lots so it is something that we're taking more costs, more collector road, dispersing it over less loss. So there is an impact to the developer to make and help this collector road become a reality. And the developer is more than willing to do this, is willing to work with the town to do this. But we are seeking some help from the town in that we have to work with DEC. So we're asking for the town's support in helping us obtain the permits with DEC, work with DEC, Perhaps a letter from the town outlining the benefit that the town sees in this collector road and support of the project with the collector road Is something that would be very very helpful for us In something that would help help to make this a reality so that is That is essentially it for the the application As far as oh one one thing I'm sorry as far as the phasing obviously with the the collector road being all on this project There was a comment about it not being done in phases. This would be something where it would be part of the other project and done with with one phase and as far as a connection to Hamden woods, we are not proposing any sort of a connection to Hamden woods The collector road as shown we can see the right-of-way going through the other parcel We're connecting from the Enclave out to Elm and right now. We're not showing any connection points Towards towards Hamden woods. That's essentially it. We do have technical comments from the planning board something that our planning department I'm sorry something that we're more than willing to work with them work with the town and address and we're here tonight for questions and comments from the board and hopefully to advance the project thank you very much great thank you while I ask the board members for their feedback staff could you possibly pull up GIS just to show the different parcels that so that we can very clearly articulate what the previous part project Hamden woods then there's a project in the middle and where this one And it's just so we can kind of go over that in a little bit of detail here. Yeah. Brian, I'm pulling up the map that's actually from the scope of the traffic study. Okay. Just because it labels the subdivisions. This is the Kimmy Point property outlined here in yellow. This is Elm Avenue and Elm Avenue East going down this way. This is the Enclave neighborhood here. This is Haswell Farms here. This is the main connecting internal subdivision street from the enclave that leads up through Haswell Farms and eventually to Furebush Road. This is the Laurelana Heights neighborhood. This property directly on the north side of Kimmy Point is known as the Forston property. It's a privately owned family property. It has been in the past. We did have an application for a solar facility. That application has not been back to the board in a couple of years, I think about two years now, but it has not been withdrawn. So this is what the town would consider an active application because it has not been withdrawn. and it is for a large-scale solar facility on this property. The next piece of property that is not developed yet, it's known as the Hamden Woods property because in the past there was an application to the town for a subdivision called Hamden Woods. That application has been withdrawn, and we do not have an active application from that property owner for any kind of development right now. Okay, so then maybe we could go back to the drawing that we had and just show... Yeah. So there's a property between the two, right? I'm just trying to understand how we can best explain this for the public. Yeah, so... Kind of the roadway connection there. Let me try on this map first, and then we can switch over to the applicant's layout. Sorry, it's not really. I think as part of your explanation, too, you can try to answer the question about, I know we don't know what's going to happen in the future, but what you could anticipate with Hamden. Yeah, I can speak a little bit to that. So again, here we are with the cursor, if you can see here. This is in between Haswell Farms and the Enclave neighborhood, an existing roadway with single-family homes. There is a stub street that was put in when the Enclave was built into the Kimme Point property. So when we talk about Kimi Drive, we're talking about this section of the road that in the past it was laid out to come across the Kimi Point lands here up in this triangle section. And actually it would cross into Kimi Point here because it had to cross the gas line on a perpendicular. And then it was proposed to curve up to the north, come into that forced off property that I talked about, and follow the gas line on a parallel. And then enter into that previously known Hamden Woods application we had, and then cut back over to Elm Avenue here. So, you know, going back, actually back in as far back as the 1990s, that was the plan to eventually have Kimi Drive built in that area, crossing those three properties. And it would be built as development came in and it would be built by the developers. So as we're discussing tonight, as of January of 2025, the New York State DEC has a new wetland regulations and a new wetland permit that you're required to get as development occurs. and so the town did have a discussion with the DEC about the future viability of building this road knowing that these two parcels, the Forstoff property and the Hamden Woods property, are significantly covered by wetlands. And we know that because the two previous applications showed us the wetlands. So we had a discussion with DEC representatives, and we talked to them about the importance of the Kimme Drive collector road being built for the town. Going back to the 1990s, it was, you know, as part of town planning, it's obvious that these vacant lands here in Glenmont will eventually be built out in some fashion as years go by. And so the Kimi Drive collector was to alleviate the traffic on Furebush Road by providing another east-west collector so that not everyone would be traveling north here, cutting through Haswell Farms to get to Furebush. So that was the plan for Kimi Drive. and where we are with that now is with the DC wetland regulations the viability of having the layout of Kimmy Drive coming through these two parcels here that have a lot of wetlands is no longer considered viable so right now we have an active application with the Kimmy Point subdivision so we've asked the owner and developer of this property to please show Kimi Drive coming directly through their property right over here to Elm Avenue and that would help to alleviate the the pressure that the Haswell Farm neighborhood now has of the traffic coming from the enclave. So as planners, and we've talked about this before, if you look at the way that the Del Mar, Old Del Mar area has built out, all of those neighborhoods have multiple access points. And so traffic can dissipate through a neighborhood. And it's not just one street or two streets that bear the burden of all of the traffic coming from one area or subdivision. So that's the reasoning behind providing collector roads. And as Scott Lansing pointed out in his presentation, I'll jump over to the conventional plan. So this is the Kimme Point property. This here is the enclave neighborhood. and this is Kimme Drive being shown. Now this is the conventional plan because the town has a requirement for subdivision applications that first you have to show us what we call a conventional plan. So these are single-family homes laid out on the property as per our code, which is three units per acre with the RA zoning. They've shown the constraints. The red areas are the wetlands. The yellow area is the required buffer, or DC is now calling the adjacent area. It's 100 feet off of the wetland. These darker red sections are the actual impacts to the wetlands. And from this layout, a developer can then show how many lots could possibly be built here. but then show us a cluster layout, which is what they would like to build and what the town prefers because there is more open space provided within the layout. So as Scott was explaining, this is the cluster layout that they would like feedback from the board tonight. Again, the wetlands are shown, the buffer is shown, the impacts are shown in darker red areas. I'll just point out that the two stormwater management areas required for this subdivision are located here and here. And that's based on a drainage study that the town did previously under a previous application for this property. I guess I'll stop there and let you. Great. Thank you. While we're here, could I just ask a quick question, Leslie? I'm not seeing, because the map maybe is dancing so much, could you point where the also proposed exit from this development is on Spring Ridge? Thank you. Yeah, so the access points are here, Spring Ridge, up here. This is Spring Ridge here. This is the existing enclave neighborhood. This is Ivywood here, Matt. This is already an existing street with houses on it. This is Spring Ridge, which is the stub street into the Kimi Drive property. And then a little further north, this is the Kimi Drive leg coming out of the enclave. And the other outlet, of course, is over here at Elm Avenue. So those are the three access points for the neighborhood. Thank you. Can you just try to answer the question about, I know you don't know the future, but what Hamden Woods, without that Kimmy Drive, what the possibilities are for that connection now? Do you have any idea based on their question was what would Hamden now that it wouldn't have Kimmy Drive would it still be connected to this? So no. So now I'll go back to that bigger map here. So Kimmy Drive is now proposed to come here from the sub street and stay within Kimmy Point. Hamden Woods is further up here. It's directly adjacent to the Lorelana Heights neighborhood, so it would not be connected to Kimme Drive, which is down here. It also has a property in between the Forstoff property, which is proposed for solar. Thank you. Did you have a question, Patty? I did. If that proposed solar were to happen, there has to be excess roads in there. and previously there was connection scheduled. And so to try to combine it, Leslie, you also just mentioned that creating the connections would alleviate traffic coming from the enclave into Haswell Farms, yet some of the traffic study, which I'll comment more on later, but But there were comments about you had said it will alleviate the pressure into Haswell, yet it comes out onto Forston which exits onto Hasgate Road which is one of the proposed exit on to Forston which adds traffic the way I looked at it to Hasgate equivalent to Haswell Farms, the road with the most complaints. Okay, wait. So you gave me a couple different questions. Let me just see if I can count them all. I'll start with the last part. So this is the Enclave neighborhood, and a lot of this neighborhood traffic does travel through the Haswell Farms neighborhood, goes north to Furebush Road. Now, when that development was proposed, the town saw in our planning that that would be what would happen. So this Forston Drive was built with a multi-use path on it. It helps with the pedestrian, safe pedestrian connectivity. The intent of having Kimi Drive connect from Forston over here in the east-west direction is that people who live here in the Enclave will use Kimi Drive to get out to Elm to travel north. If you're traveling to the 32 bypass, trying to get up to Slingerlands or Route 85 to go north to Colony, you would most likely use Elm Avenue to head in that direction. it's when I said alleviate it's another way out and it provides an alleviate alleviates people from heading into Haswell Farms to then go to Furebush Road using Kimme Point they'll head west and use Elm Avenue so it's another way to get out It's also part of the traffic scope. We'll talk about that. And I'll just answer one of the comments I heard from the public is that the traffic scope for the traffic study was developed in combination with the developers' representatives as well as the town's representatives. So we're using traffic engineering experts. the town has our own and the developer has theirs and we developed the scope together. And the developer pays for it. Yes. It's an approved scope that the town and the developers representatives work on in concert together. That's true, yes. Maybe just another way of explaining the traffic and Patty's question here is that I think what Leslie I think was trying to state was that there's another opportunity for connection right so as opposed to right now where let's say 80 90% of the people heading north are gonna take this one road this would give another option similar to how we've seen in old Delmar where you have you know your way and my way of getting to your house from here maybe five different directions because there are ten different roads that would take you there right and so by doing that you have multiple ways to get from point A to point B I think is what what we're saying here with this additional Kimi Drive that you have another avenue to another road you know another roadway connection to make it thank you Brian and Leslie I do understand that but once people generally driving personalities although I'll state again as I did our last meeting I realize I'm not a traffic engineer people have established patterns of how they come from the enclave go up to Hazgate and at the far end of this proposed development there is the connection of Kimi alleged connection of Kimi to Forsten which will go on to Hazgate and that's the closest and yes Leslie if they're going to in the direction where Elm would assist them I see that but if they're also going north on Fjordbush or heading to Wemple or heading to Ellesmere, that's not going to have them go all the way through the new development as I see it and I think as the new residents would see it to get onto Elm and to head that way. So again, I'm not that expert. We'll see what the traffic studies say. I'm just pointing out that I highly feel it's unlikely this is going to reduce the existing concerns that the Haswell Farms residents have regarding traffic, particularly on Hasgate and Corritt. Let me just get back to... Leslie, if I can just add, I just want to just jump in for a second. and one of the things too is this road is also going to take you're talking about existing traffic in the enclave and hasgate both mark right but in this case that road is also that that's a benefit that can happen from a planning perspective but also this road is going to take all of that traffic out of the proposed development well not a lot of it out of that development that's another intended purpose of it so you're not adding that traffic primarily into has gate and the enclave in order for that so it's another option for that traffic to get out in a different way they may not want to drive through has gate and we're you know go through the neighborhood they can go through their own neighborhood and get out so there are different options for it and I think that's what the diffusion comment that they were talking about with traffic when it's in a report like that and they're doing they're talking about having different options for the people to take instead of being forced out one way. I totally agree and I was also speaking to the options. Thank you. If I could just add where you see where these two connections are being made where you see where these two connections are being made one enforced in and one one at Spring Ridge you know past planning boards when the enclave was was designed and built was with the intention that these sub-streets would be connected when this property is developed. This road wasn't built at the developer's good sharing. It was the planning board thinking ahead of, as this development is built, the next development that comes in will need access and disperse traffic. These two stub streets helped to provide that road connection. So I just want to reflect on the past planning board's designs and approvals and construction by the developer to put in these substrates that are now being extended. Great. Thank you. I think, Brian, I could answer. Patty had two other questions, which I tried to write down. But you had a question about the solar access. So the solar proposed on the Forston property here would only have one access, and that is through the Forston owner's driveway is the proposed access for the solar facility because, of course, solar facilities are just sitting there on the landscape. They're not producing traffic. They are maintained, so they have a maintenance vehicle that comes out. so there's no need for you know a town roadway to the solar site so the solar site will only be using the driveway that's existing off of Elm Avenue for the forced off property and then I think there was a question on the Hamden Woods piece and access did I cover that for you I think we've covered that right now to some point but when in a zoning board of appeals meeting I may have attended as a private citizen in 21 or 22 but I am looking at the different it's still hard to get the concept of where Kimmy may or may not end up in all areas but you've spoken to specific areas where it won't but in that zoning board meeting there were discussions about how that That property, Rob, I remember you also speaking about the distancing from it. And it was speaking about how that solar and that Mr. Forstoff's property would also connect to Kimmy Drive. But truthfully, I think I'm helping and we're getting a little off point for the concept of tonight's meeting. But I know that that was part of Kimmy. Yeah, I think you're correct. So that forced off property for the solar field had a right-of-way set aside through the center of that solar field so that in the future, this is going back when you were looking at it from the zoning board's perspective, should the next phase of Kimi Drive be built, the right-of-way was preserved. Okay now should the board pursue the new layout a new alignment of Kimmy Drive Should that solar project return for a planning board review that right-of-way would no longer be needed to be reserved I think that's getting to your question about the solar field showed a right-of-way for the second phase of Kimmy Drive If this alignment is is pursued You know by the developer with support from the board there's no need for that right of way to be shown on the solar field property. Thank you. The saying is, if you see here the wetlands in red and then the area in yellow is the wetland adjacent area or buffer area, should DEC issue the permit for the wetland impacts impacts as well as the buffer impacts, these areas in yellow would be deed restricted from future development. So the question that came up earlier about would Kimi Drive ever continue to the north to Hamden Woods through this subdivision layout and deed restrictions of the wetland buffer, that could not happen. Because there would be a deed restriction on this area in yellow and even the red area that would restrict any future disturbance to that area. Thank you. I do appreciate the complete explanations of this because I think not only my questions and maybe my colleagues' questions, but questions from the community about this long history of that area trying to help us all understand what the what-ifs and the word transparency was used, as transparent as we can be to speak to those what-ifs. Thank you. So any other board member questions or statements on this before we move on? So, Leslie, I know one of the main intents of tonight's or purposes of tonight's meeting was to present this newly proposed layout for Kimmy Drive, get the board's feedback. Do you want us to specifically go down the line and express support? support or you know would that be helpful you think at this point and then ultimately I know I would have I believe based on the applicant's request that there would be some sort of letter of support from the town indicating that this is the preferred layout or the preferred design alignment that's a better word yeah alignment for the road and we support these minimal impacts is what I think what we're asking, right? Question, quick question, though. I thought you said it was covered under the general permit. Is the road pushing you over into an individual permit? Do you come back to the microphone? So you're still covered because you were saying you need the permit. You're falling under the general permit. Correct. It is under the general permit. We're well under the threshold, so we would not be an individual permit. Right. So you're not trying. So you see a tower knowledge DC was was interested in in learning Why that road is shown okay without any typically on a residential subdivision They see lots coming off that road sure and so all right typically with the wetland impacts. It's always avoid Minimize mitigate. Yeah, so they just want to understand why you need the road, but you're still falling under the general permit Okay Okay. Brian, you were just saying that they need some kind of letter from the town or information, but you weren't saying we were done with comments yet because I do have some comments on the with regard to the traffic analysis and to the wetland disturbances. Correct. But we're not there yet. No, I was just trying to keep us on the roadway alignment first and get the board's feedback. So I'll start myself. I think this alignment makes sense. i think it's helpful to have it all in one parcel and make it so that this connection actually can happen and it doesn't have to happen in a phased approach um so to me it makes sense but i'm curious what other board members think of the alignment i agree with that alignment i think it's great i think you guys have done a wonderful job in laying this out and meeting and minimizing rising impacts on wetlands, increasing open space, increasing the number of choices that the public will have in traffic. There are so many advantages to this. So I think I support this as the preferred layout and I also support the alignment of the roadway. I just want to finish with just one simple question. There are two locks on this layout that do not identify a building or an owner. One is on the north, just on the north of the roadway alignment where that area, and then down on the southwest portion, that lot also. How will those be treated? Will it be an HOA, or do you have any – it may be too early to even answer that yet, but I was just curious. The way it's shown right now is the cul-de-sac up in the upper right-hand portion, there's a lot on the corner right there. So the way we're showing it right now is that lot will include that land. So that would be deed-restricted permanent open space land. But we right now is shown as a part of that that lot, but that's that's up for discussion as we move forward You know, perhaps the town wants to take it as as open space land perhaps An open space organization there are options for right now is shown as part of that lot Okay, and then the others the other lot here That one as well. That's part of the that should be part of the lot looks like there is a line there But I don't believe that I think it's more to mark the edge of that lot right there that one Yes, I believe that's part of that lot, but we'll double check that and make sure that's incorporated. I was a little confused. Yes. But thank you very much. Great job. Thank you. As I said at the January 2025 meeting, I appreciated the degree of environmentally sustainable concepts you included, the engineer included in this project, and I still do. But that said, with the road layout, this impacts the whole concept a little bit, so I don't know where I should make this comment or not, so I'm just going to make it now. I can make it again. I have some various concerns about the overall project, which includes the layout, and you have done a good job. But the concern I have is the amount of disturbances that's caused to all the wetland buffers. And that I would personally like to see a lot less disturbance of the wetland buffers because they're there for a reason. And impervious surfaces are one of the worst destructive concepts towards wetlands. And that happens on the roads and the buffers are there for a reason. So, and then that difference, if there's less, it could impact on the amount of buildable land, because I also have some concerns about using some of the conserved wetland buffer areas as the required open space, which could then impact the density bonuses that you're asking for. So this is just the whole concept of what I'm looking at. I'm supportive of the road alignment. The fact that the road will be essentially in one property as opposed to several, which the EC pointed out, would be much more difficult to assess. So definitely supportive of that. Also, again, the ECB and the agencies are charged with, you know, with land permits. Of course, you know, depending on the situation, the Corps of Engineers might be involved too. But from what you have discussed or described, you know, you have met the requirements. So I'm in support of the current proposal. Thank you. As far as the road, sorry, I'm losing my voice, but as far as the road, I appreciate you guys putting it through one property. I think it alleviates a lot of concerns. It doesn't connect to other existing neighborhoods. It gives a way out, and it certainly helps from the town planning to have it all on one property and one project, so I'm supportive of that. I mean just to continue on a bit from what patty said I definitely Don't you know i'm in favor of minimizing the buffer impacts because obviously the buffer is very important I know you're in a tough spot because with the new regs your entire property is Essentially wetlands and buffer so i'm sensitive to that fact I just want you to give it a good look and make sure you're really doing what you can on the buffer You know minimization especially since you're covered under the general permit to just make sure all of the lots are as, there's no more flexibility in minimizing those. My only other comment. Okay. So I think we have a resounding level of support for the alignment, and I think we have a lot of other questions to talk through, and the buffer discussion and the viability of some of these lots, I think, is a good maybe segue to something that we could talk about. I mean, just looking at this kind of horseshoe shape alignment, you know, I'm wondering if there are other ways, Scott, that you could look at laying that out. Scott, engineer, not my fellow colleague, Scott. Basically, to use some more of the unconstrained buffer space there along. Yeah, thank you. There, as opposed to, you know, using some of the buffer space. I think another thing that we've looked at on other proposals is basically what is the overall usability of a site. So I'm just curious if the lot, can you move to the cursor to the left, Leslie? And then in the pie-shaped lots just down. Sorry, to the right a little bit and then up. Yeah, right there. Yeah, just like right up a little bit north of where you are right now. Yeah, those lots. There's two lots there that are almost fully or not fully within the buffer zone. So I'm just curious what and how the DEC is viewing those lots, right? So you have a house that's in the buffer. If in the future a house gets built and then a homeowner wants to put a pool in, can that homeowner do that or can they not? And then the homeowner to the right that's outside of the buffer is allowed to do that. So I think there's kind of a lot of questions I would see on a lot of those concerns for some of these lots that are fully within the buffer zone. We don't necessarily have to answer that today unless you know the answer, but I think it would be something we would want to kind of talk through as we move forward trying to identify which lots are actually viable. Sure. Excuse me. A couple things. First off, as far as the general permit, it's just that. It's something that the DEC does put out there to try to encompass all different projects. So there's a good streamline process and thresholds that projects can fall under to make it an efficient process for both applicants and the DEC. So that is something that we were very careful about. We did take a look at the worksheet. We made sure that we stayed below the maximum thresholds that they have for those so that we can stay within the general permit and keep things overall efficient for the project. As far as the individual lots, we're conservative on those. We feel we were conservative on those in that if you zoom in on a lot, you can see we do have an area where there's a deed restricted area on that particular lot. And then we more or less have a setback from that deed restricted area. If we go down to maybe the Horseshoe or really any one of the lots, you can see where there's the hatched area, the diagonal hatched area, maybe closer to the enclave. You can see that that hatched area. But that is what we're proposing as deed restricted open space preservation area. And then we have kind of a pretend property line behind there. And then we have a setback from that deed restricted open space area. So we do feel we have adequate room behind these structures for swimming pools or decks or enjoyment of the backyard. So the smaller hatches, that's the area that we're anticipating as disturbed area. So in our calculations for that 100-foot buffer disturbance, that is the area that we have. So we do feel we've covered that on the individual lots and just wanted to clarify that for the board. That's all. That's helpful. I think, yeah, not being able to zoom in at that level, it doesn't show. So I'm glad you highlighted that. You're welcome. Scott, can I just ask a question? Scott, do you know if DEC, with these types of situations, in the past, Army Corps used to require, like, a low split rail type fence to provide a visual cue to a new homeowner. this is the usable area and this is the need restricted area. Has DEC had any conversations with you about how they're going to handle how folks know in the field, on their property, where? We don't know yet. We have not had any feedback to that extent, but I can see that potentially coming. Yeah, that's a good point that on other sites that were Army Corps jurisdiction, where that delineated line was, it's obviously shown on a plan very clearly, but in the field one would have no idea. so the Army Corps has required a split rail fence or some other sort of marker and that we followed through as a condition of approval. So good question. Any other thoughts or questions on the buffer zones? Leslie, was there anything you wanted to highlight on that, maybe to the word's attention? Yeah, so we've been talking about the permit, but I just want to show it here. So this is the worksheet that's required by DEC for the developers to fill out. And I included it in your packet, but I'll just give you a quick overview. The first page here has the regulated wetland in acres, the regulated adjacent area, which we usually call the buffer, the total acreage of the site. You run those numbers, you get a percentage. So for this particular property, 54% of the property is under regulation from either the wetland or the buffer. So then you take that percentage down here to this part of the calculation and it shows you what DEC is allowing for the percentage of the impact to the wetland. And it's based on the total acreage of the site, the amount of wetlands, and then the calculation for the buffer impacts. And it also, again, goes by that percentage. So I just want to point out, it's already been said, but as part of this regulation, the DEC is noting that the permit is having an impact on the property, and they are allowing certain percentage, certain acreage of impact. And so when you do the calculation, you get the numbers at the bottom of page one. It shows you what you are allowed by New York State DEC to impact. And then above that, it has a limit. So there is a limit of a three-acre impact to wetlands, 15-acre impact to the buffer. And then on the second sheet of the permit calculation, it shows what the development is actually impacting. So in this particular case, the Kimme Point subdivision can impact up to 13.31 acres of the buffer, according to New York State, D.C., and 0.39 acres of the wetlands. and here on page 2 they're showing that 10 acres of the buffer will actually be impacted by the layout that they're showing and .28 is the impact to wetlands. And then the mitigation calculation is here and for this particular project they have to mitigate about a half an acre and show that on the property. So that's all these different areas here on the map. Here's the mitigation area shown here, the half acre that goes with the calculation form. And again, like we mentioned before, the pink is wetland, the red is the actual wetland impact, and then the yellow is the buffer. and as Scott was explaining, the hatched areas of that yellow are the impact. But for this subdivision layout at this stage with this map, I think there's approximately 6.99 acres of the yellow of this buffer area that DEC will require to be preserved. That's really helpful. Did you have a question, Rad? No, I just want to make a basic comment that, to summarize what you're saying, Leslie, is that, you know, some folks might have the expectation that you cannot create any impact at all, but DEC is saying that impacts can be created, and at least in terms of the application, the applicant is showing that they're impacting even less than what is allowed by DEC, correct? That's correct, yes. Okay, thank you. And might it also be helpful, I don't know if, Scott, you know this off the top of your head, but the impacts, roughly the ratio of Kimi Drive impacts versus the residential, you know, like are we talking like half of your impacts potentially or more are in along that roadway connection there? Yeah, excuse me, I would have to look at that and get an exact answer, but you know eyeballing it I would say we're roughly a third to a half something in that in that range okay just just for that came you drive section between and even with that though we're still under the threshold correct just on this on that note just keep in mind from the original alignment that that road would have also right if the original alignment would have hooked up as it was intended that would have had impacts to the buffer and then there would have been additional impacts on the adjacent property to the north and then additional impacts on the Hamlin Woods property. So I just want to try and keep apples to apples comparison as far as wetland impacts were going to happen. It's just a matter of where and when and what development essentially. If that was pursued to the north. I just want to provide that comparison. That's a good point. And while this applicant can't evaluate other parcels, it was, I believe, use at high level discussed and you know by looking at maps with the EC that there were wetlands in those other areas. Well we saw the solar project mapping so we know where there's wetlands on that central parcel and then we saw the Hamden Woods parcel we knew there were wetlands there as well. So just to provide an equal comparison as to wetland impact. Exactly. That's helpful. And I wasn't indicating that it wasn't a good idea. I was just saying that there was a split between the roadway and the residential portion of the project. Any other board member questions on the wetland and wetland permit information that we were just talking about? Leslie, was there? Oh, sorry. Go ahead. Not yet. Yeah. Did you have any other statements or anything you wanted to talk about on that item before we move to the next one, Leslie? I'll just follow up by saying when staff spoke with DEC about the new regulations, about the permit, and about their policies and how this would be carried out in general, they reminded us that as one agency within the state, they have to work with the other agencies. And so basically they have to balance this permit for conservation of natural resources against the need for housing. So when I'm explaining that DEC is allowing certain impacts to wetlands, it's because they're part of the bigger picture of trying to balance the need for housing and natural resource protection. Gotcha. Thank you. Okay, so I think maybe the last item in the memo, I know Patty has a statement, a question on her comment is traffic. If I wanted, just before we get into that, just to understand from the memo, it identifies that we have a scope of work from 2020 for the previous project, which was accepted at the time. But if I'm not mistaken, that scope did include the Hamden Woods project, right? or were they separated at that point? I feel like at one point we were together. Yeah, let me update you on that too because that was getting kind of confusing. When you look back, all the way back to the original application for this property goes back to 2019 when we were talking about the traffic scope and there were multiple planning board meetings on that issue. So the original application for this Kimmy Point property It had the same name, Kimmy Point. It was a different developer. It was the Michaels Group. They were using the same VHB as the traffic consultant, and the town is continuing to use our same traffic consultant, CHA. So when the Michaels Group application was before the town, Hamden Woods was also at that time back in 2018, 2019 before the town. So we had Hamden Woods and Kimmy Point working together on the traffic scope. Hamden Woods, like I said, they withdrew. And so in 2020, we came back to the board with a revised scope. Since Hamden Woods withdrew, the scope for the traffic would concentrate on the Kimmy Point subdivision. So by July 30th, this is the scope here, of July 30th, 2020, Hamden Woods was taken out. There were a couple of intersections that were taken out because those were the ones that were going to be impacted by Hamden Woods. Other than that, the scope in general is still relevant today. Obviously, there's no Hamden Woods today either. But one of my comments to the applicant going back to January of 2025 was just to have VHB look over this scope and just let us know if there's anything else. Now that it's been five years, there are a couple of items within this scope that need to be revised, I think. So I'm waiting for a response on that. I think there was a part here where we talked about a 2017 traffic counts, which, of course, you know, it's 2026 now, so we're going to need some updates there. We would want to look at 2017 counts. So there are some minor items in the scope that we'd like to have some feedback on, and then we'll talk about that with the board at a later date. That was my only comment was not to use 2017 traffic count. So I figured they were going to be. And I know that data may have been existing and now they may need to create it. But obviously that's too old. Okay. Right. That makes sense. Patty, I know you had a question. Did we cover your question or do you want to? That was one of my questions, the 2017. And so thanks for being on that, Leslie. I also, since then, I think around 2019, there was a project approved, was it Stonefield possibly, that connected Haswell Farms, Laurelina Heights, Dover Estates, and Bain, I believe it's Bain Avenue, but it may be Bain Road. And so I think because of the amount of connecting traffic that now comes into those neighborhoods because of that, I would ask that you also ask that the spindler, the road spindle, part of spindler, Quarrett extension in addition to Quarrett and Bain and Dover also be included in the analysis of the study. This is probably a good time for me to make a disclaimer, but I don't think it prejudices me in any way whatsoever. I live on Dover Drive. So I'll just show here on the map, this is the area that Stonefield subdivision built out on. Right now on this map it's showing it as vacant land, but this is where Stonefield is built now. And there are connections here from Corrid. so this map is part of the traffic scope and there were these blue and red dots are showing the intersections we have Elm Avenue and Fiora Bush we have the Haswell Farms entry here with Fiora Bush and we have Fiora Bush and Ellesmere and then down on the south Elm Avenue East and Elm Avenue, the entrance to the enclave here and Elm Avenue East, those were the intersections that were agreed upon to be studied in the scope. So Patty, I would take your request and we'll talk about that with the traffic consultants. Were those intersections you shared and if you did share intersect, were those roads intersections you shared with us? Just now, yeah. Can you repeat those intersections? I'm very sorry. Spindler intersects with Corrett and then Salem, there's, and I'm sorry, a street, I'm not remembering. They all intersect and then they intersect with Dover. And I'm referencing streets where we've already received on a town-wide basis some complaints. And then is it Bain now continues to Core Extension and Bain and Core Extension have referenced some traffic problems because Bain used to be like a four house street and now the traffic coming through from connecting through Spindler and Stonefield. Sorry. Does that make sense to you? Does that answer your question? It does. I think at some point we should get a list. Okay. You can point out on a list. And I'll try to call them from. I'm familiar with the neighborhood you're talking about. I just want to be super clear of the intersections you're requesting so we can pass that on to the applicant and there's no confusion. Yes, and in addition to the traffic study hopefully focusing on the amount of time that the driver occupant is delayed at an intersection, I'm hoping, as is referenced on the third page by VHB, We're also going to make sure that the context of that traffic study talks to the livability and the community quality metric impacts on the neighborhoods impacted as well. That's a good one. I think we did talk about that a lot since 2020, specifically, and the other project in Glenmont. I think we have language that this board has worked on since 2020. So maybe we can put some of that into this. It's here already from 2020. It's in the scope. Because we've been talking about qualitative here. So we have the town's identified some books that we want VHB and the developer to use to get at the discussion, the analysis of qualitative impacts in the neighborhood. And so, yes, we've been talking about that since 2020, and they're already included in the scope. I also want to point out, though, that the scope for the traffic analysis needs to be in line with the development proposal. So we can't make this into a neighborhood traffic analysis based on board member concern for certain streets. It has to be legally. It has to be directly tied to the impact from the development that's proposed. And I'm sure Mark can speak to that. Let me just answer that before Mark answers it legally. I knew you would probably say that, and I agree. And the reason I'm referencing this and the Stonefield connection is because of the force and exit onto Hazgate, which then leads traffic to come into these streets I referenced. So I wasn't just going into an unrelated neighborhood. So thank you. So it would be you're talking about people who would in the future live here in Kimmy Point, and we would be studying the impact of that development on roads that we've identified, but to get into these neighborhoods, you know, that's part of what we would have to talk with our traffic consultant engineers, which is what I think Mark could probably speak to. Yeah, I think that what you're, there's a threshold question of whether traffic from this, and to what extent traffic from this proposed subdivision would cause any impacts or utilize those roads. and intersections so trying to understand that and you know that it may be the case there where it's negligible or de minimis impact it may be significant so we want to understand that because we can only evaluate those intersections where there's going to be likely impacts and you know that so that's for the engineers to determine how the traffic would flow what routes would be taken what if anything would need to be done in terms of mitigation and you know steering traffic in certain directions or something along those lines but you know again we do need to be careful between we have to take into account existing conditions but we can't use we can mitigate impacts from this project given the existing conditions we can't mitigate existing conditions that aren't impacted by the project. Is that, that's what? I could maybe add as well, at a bare minimum, this map needs to be updated to show today's conditions. Sure. To get that feedback from the town engineer, town designated engineer for traffic, as well as the hired consultant that the applicant's working on to even answer that question. I don't think we're even at that point where we can't answer that question. I don't think it's as easy as just dismissing the question. I think we have to have the engineering professionals look into that. So thank you, Patty. Are there any other traffic questions or comments? Obviously, tonight we're not ready to act on this traffic portion, so the applicant has some work to give back to us on and update based on some data from 2020. Okay. Leslie, any other items you were looking for our feedback on this evening? I think the applicant just wanted to get your general feedback on their request for the incentive bonus. So as they said, they were asking for an additional 13 lots. We're not really ready since we don't have our base lot count finalized, but maybe in general any feedback you have on giving bonuses, they provided a narrative for you. I mean, to me, maybe if you go back to the other plan, I think that, I think Gianna, someone raised a question earlier about who was going to own some of these open space lands. I think, you know, without knowing some of that information, it's hard for us to answer some of these questions as well as some of the questions we raised earlier about kind of the usability of some of these lots. so I think we have some more information before we can make a determination on that personally. But I don't know if other board members have thoughts or comments on that at this point. I think we're just a little early still to make that decision. You're welcome to weigh in. Sure. First off, as far as the base calculations, we did prepare the conventional layout plan that did yield 86 lots, so we would like that to be considered by the board. As far as the the usability of each lot the open space for each lot again I know it's tough to see on the screen up here, but if you do zoom in on the lots we feel that we do have Ample usable areas around each one of those lots. We do show the disturbed area of the hundred foot buffer and buffers in those areas So we'd like to board to consider that as well Respectfully, I don't think this board will make that determination Obviously, I think that's going to have to come from engineering to review the technical merits of each lot. I mean, just for example, if you scroll down at the lot that Scott identified, you know, that small lot, you said that lot line shouldn't be there. So I think there are still some probably technical questions to work through, and that will be something that you'll work through with staff on, I think. That's been our process. Okay. Thank you. You're welcome. Any other questions or comments? Okay. So with that, there's no action. so we will table for this evening. Thank you for coming. Our next item this evening is the zoning law and subdivision regulation update. Tonight we're on discussion number 26. Tonight we are proposed to talk through some of the public comments that we received at the December 16th meeting as well as talk through a couple of specific items as well. So I will turn it over to Rob when he is ready. Yep, and I just want to acknowledge that our consultant, Kyler's Engineering, is with us remotely. Molly from Kyler's has been working with us on the draft zoning update all this time, and so she has been listening and watching from her remote location outside of Albany. So just want to make sure folks know Molly is here, and if there's any questions as we go on with the discussion for the zoning update, she is certainly available to chime in. Great, thank you. And maybe just to kind of intro this, obviously we heard a lot of comments at our last meeting in December, and we thought it would just be helpful to walk through a few things to kind of put it all in one place, because I think there's a lot of, I know there's a lot of detail, and it takes a lot to go through all of that detail, so we thought it would be helpful just to kind of walk through some things, get it all in one place, and try to answer some of the questions that we may have heard in the past. Okay. So I've got a few slides here, some information that I wanted to share with the board as well as folks in the audience who had brought up some questions and comments at the last meeting in December. A couple of comments that came in were concerns about promotion material that was provided or to the comments that came in lack thereof i do want to let folks know there was a promotion action and effort by the by the town staff in in getting out the word about the zoning updates there were featured news items on the town website display boards at town hall in the town library we had advertisements in our town bethlehem publication i recognize today our town is no longer in publication but when they were and we were going on with this, we were providing advertisements in that publication. Postcard mailers were sent out to over 17,000 mailboxes. Here's an example of one of them up in the top right here. So mailings that went out on three occasions were provided to over 17,000 mailboxes. Press releases to media. Supervisor had social media posts. We had the Bethlehem E. Newsletter that had updates. And flyers were also sent out to emails that were provided to us during the public meetings and public comment period associated with the zoning update. And so those flyers were advertising planning board meetings or public meetings like the November 18th meeting that we had just a few weeks ago. And then we also, with the school district adopting Bethlehem School District using Parent Square, we also have sent notifications to the Bethlehem Central School District. They have been promoting it when submitted. We have also submitted it to Ravina Quiemens and Goodland. Their guidelines on submitting Parent Square notifications are a little different than Bethlehem, and they have certain criteria that they need to use to distribute community events. I don't think this was one they considered met that, so it didn't go out in the Ravina Quiemens, Parent Square, or Goodland, but I'm certain it went out in the Bethlehem Central School District. And so that obviously reaches, I understand, reaches a select group of demographics with people with school-age children, but it is another way that we use to get the word out about the zoning update. So I just want to share the effort that was made to provide promotion of the zoning update underway. And obviously with the 25 planning board meetings, the town board and supervisor provided community events and ongoings at each one of their town board meetings each month as the town board meets regularly twice a month. So just some information there. we heard a lot of comments about the zoning update related to housing and different types of housing and so I want folks to just understand and reflect on the comprehensive plan and that the comprehensive plan has its goal of establishing flexibility for a mix and diversity of housing types ownership options rental options and price points and this diagram is kind of a good diagram that we've been using to really help portray what we're trying to achieve which is what's better known as that missing middle middle housing so we've Bethlehem has predominantly been a single-family community zoning districts have have really only allowed for single-family homes in the majority of land in the town and so this mini missing middle housing is the other types of housing that can provide housing to various income levels and that could be accessory apartments that could be two family homes that could be cottage homes that could be three family and multi-family family unit so when the planning board has been discussing the two zoning districts that are particularly of interest i think to folks today are the the mixed density residential zone and the low density residential zone the reason for providing different types of housing is to achieve that goal of a variety of housing types that we we as a community put forth and the town board adopted in the comprehensive plan so that's the the background as to what we're trying to achieve here is the variety of housing housing types and so in the zoning update the are there are key components to allow the variety of housing types and they're allowed through different land use review processes and they're they come with different zoning density designations and so I want to show show everyone those zoning designations for both the mixed density and the low density residential zones here's the zoning map that we are all familiar with i'm going to zoom in in the area that we're talking about tonight and here's here's the uh here's the committee point area this is furibus road we all recognize the brown color as the mixed density residential and the maroon reddish color as the hamlet zone along furibus road and this area of glenmont and so In looking at those zoning districts for mixed-density residential, the first thing you look at is part two of our zoning law. Part two of our zoning law includes district uses and their regulations. When you look at the district uses and regulations for the residential zoning districts, as we focus in on the low-density residential and mixed-density residential, you can see that we have different review procedures for developments in the low-density residential and mixed-density residential. So I'll start off with the mixed-density residential. The P here in this useless table reflects that these use types are permitted. It doesn't mean they're permitted by right and there's no review at all. It just means that these are housing types that are allowed in this district. and then you need to follow the action table for a site plan review, sub-division review. Those are all standard reviews that all of these developments listed here would be required to receive should they be going through a new housing development. So that's what can be proposed? This is what can be proposed, correct. Not approved? Not automatically approved, exactly. So this is what is allowed to be proposed and then as the site is laid out and proposed and reviewed then Then there's the discussion about are you providing, are you having potential impacts? What are the mitigation measures to address those impacts? But this is the use table. Go ahead. So you're going to walk through how it gets proposed, what the limits are on that, and then how we get through the board process and where those two pieces. So we start with the. Yeah. Yes, correct. So this is what the use table shows you. It shows you what uses are allowed. It also shows you, in this case, what type of review might be required. So anytime you see the SUP designation, that means the use is specially permitted, and you would need a special use permit in order to... On top of typical approvals, you need another approval for a special use permit. That's correct. Correct. Exactly. Exactly. Okay. And so anytime you see the SUP, that's another level of review that would be required for any type of use here that's listed with special use permit. So then that brings you to, well, if I can do those uses, I can do a two-family, a three-family, how many units can I construct on a particular lot? And so that's where you see the dimensional requirements table in the zoning law. And so, again, focusing on the mixed density residential zone, you can see that for our three- to four-unit buildings, those can be developed at a density of 12 dwelling units per acre. Five-plus units can be developed at 17 dwelling units per acre. And then it's lower in the low-density residential. That has a 7-unit per acre density. So highlighting the difference between the two different zones, you look to the dimensional requirement table to better understand the number of units that are allowed per acre of unconstrained land. So it's not on the total acreage of the site. It's subtracting out all the constrained land the steep slopes floodplains wetlands What are you left with and you you then base your density? That's the maximum units you could do so when we hear large apartment complexes, that's not What this is geared toward? It's the size of the property you subtract down To the buildable land and then that's your maximum density allowed that's your maximum density as the as proposed As an example, as the applicant tonight mentioned, they went through that same calculation and that calculation showed them 160 units, but the land characteristics and the layout also influence how you achieve the number of units on the site. So I think during this presentation he mentioned based on a calculation, the calculation showed them 160 units, but they couldn't achieve those numbers because of the layout of the site, the location of wetlands, the wetland buffer area. So there's a lot of site characteristics that come into play outside of a strict density formula. And setbacks and so forth. Setbacks as well. Yep. Okay. And then also, you also look to the bulk requirements, and that's highlighted down here. The bulk requirements show the height of the building and what is allowed. So you can see here in the mixed density residential for any of the multifamily buildings those are permitted at 45 feet which is three stories everything else is at the 35 feet two stories again the the bulk requirements in this in the zoning update reflect on while a 45 feet is is allowed the board must also take into account the context of the surrounding area as they're looking at the height of new buildings. So even if with the density of units, you're still only allowed to build two stories in the low density and three stories in mixed residential, but that's again proposed when the board takes into account what is in the surrounding area and what can be allowed. Okay. Correct. So this is the, so now you've gotten through the types of uses in the first table I showed in the second table I showed I presented the density allowances and now in this table this is a action table which reflects on well what type of permissions are allowed actually to back up to not only the height requirements but their setback requirements so if you have a narrow property you still have side setbacks front setbacks back setback rear setbacks correct correct I didn't I didn't share those that's okay but there's still other still there right not only height but on all four sides so depending on the shape of the property that further restricts you There's front setbacks, side setbacks, and rear yard setbacks. And then there's also lot coverage allowances. So you can't just take the entire site and pave over it. So there are limitations on the maximum lot coverage that a site can receive for impervious surface. That includes roads, sidewalks, and buildings. And for the conservation subdivision, now you've added a requirement for open space. So for for conservation subdivision and that's which is now required you don't get the conventional layout right? That's correct. So now we require so can you talk a little bit about that before you go on to that? Just so we can continue to talk about the area that these things can take up. Yeah, so for the for the Mixed residential developments that have a that will have a conservation subdivision cluster conservation subdivision those properties are required to and i'm sharing the language right from the code on the screen here those properties are required to develop in a certain manner and so that design and that development is to provide one of two options when they're located within 100 feet of a single family property so the perimeter of that of that undeveloped property to be developed the perimeter of that property will either need to be developed with single-family attached or detached dwellings or two-family homes and the lot sizes of those new lots on the perimeter can be have to maintain a similar lot width as the adjacent parcel behind you know behind that that parcel with a 20 foot variance. So you can have a smaller lot, but it can't be any more than 20 feet less than the lot that is adjacent to you. So the focus of that is to provide for a perimeter layout that is similar to the existing neighborhood that has been developed in the past. You have to have more single families. So that takes up more of the property, right? So the perimeter would have to be set up as a single family attached or a two family dwelling. And as you can see here, the residential development abutting existing homes shall follow similar building height, bulk, and scale, including complementary roof lines. And so we've included design standards into what that perimeter building would essentially have to solve. So that further limits the buildable area of whatever would be new or different. It limits the buildable height of what could be built. Now, the second option is if this development does not propose a perimeter of single-family type homes, they would have to provide a 100-foot buffer, 100-foot distance from the property line, and that buffer would have to be untouched, undisturbed, maintaining existing vegetation. If existing vegetation doesn't exist, they would have to plant new vegetation in an area of no less than 25 feet within that 100-foot buffer. And so that is to provide a spacing between the old development that's been in place and what is coming in as a new development. And that visual buffer is up for planning board review. It has to actually be a visual buffer. It can't just be grass. You'd have to put money into the plantings. Correct. Correct. And that's listed here. No less than 25 feet between the property line and building within such buffer is visually screened with existing natural vegetation. At least six feet in height. At least six feet in height. So if you're planting it, you plant with six feet, it'll grow. And then that area is deed restricted from any future development. So a deed restriction is placed on the property and filed with the county. Right. So we've heard some things about being paved right up to your existing neighborhoods. That would not be possible with the way the code is written. Correct. in either of these options whether it's a row of single family or a buffer that's right right right right the row of single family would would share abutting backyards um and so it'd be backyard it would be like a single neighborhood backyard space that every other house right in town has right okay rob one other one other point you talked about bulk and scale of the buildings would be something that this board would take into consideration and that's something that we've done at other projects throughout the town where buildings were proposed for a larger development or larger scale than what was in the surrounding areas and based on the board's input and requirements of the zoning code we've been effective the board has been effective in having the scale of those buildings reduced to meet and be more similar with what's around the area so these are tools that are are available for developments that come in to make sure that there's not a lot of income incongruity with what's already there so that's I just want to make sure that that experience that the board has had in doing that is known for everyone that's a good point and maybe just to further add on to that in the past we didn't have the design guidelines set forward so this zoning update actually It gives us further ammunition to help us to do that, to make it fit better within existing neighborhoods. More to compel. More to compel. I guess, right, it's very clearly written out in the code. It makes it so it's very descriptive of what we will be looking for. So that's for a developer that comes in or for a neighbor that owns property next to something you would know what would need to be done in the adjacent. I think it helps to achieve the predictability of what we're trying to achieve with the update. Right. Yeah, before we didn't have, we had a more subjective, now we've written into a lot of those character requirements into the code. Yeah, so that's less subjective on the board. And I think, you know, the benefit of walking through this is also just to kind of explain the process, because I think a lot of questions came up about process, too, before we get into more of the specific questions. And so so this is just an example I showed this at the last meeting This is an area in yellow here from another community where this was a vacant piece of property existing homes were on me the perimeter here on the other side of the street and the perimeter of this new development is with single-family attached lots to match the Single-family on the other side of the street and then you can see here in the middle of the development These are four-family units clustered in the middle of the site, and that's exactly what our zoning update for these mixed development regulations would look to achieve. This is an example of the existing single-family home, and you can see the new two-family, single-family attached here has the similar roofline, similar scale. Again, trying to just show the product that we're looking to achieve as a result of the perimeter of single-family design along these new developments. This is another example of that approach. Here, you had single-family homes along the existing street here, and then the new development behind it is providing that 100-foot buffer. You can see here the yellow line is the 100 foot buffer from the existing property line to the nearest building And then the vegetation here was either retained or install planted This looks like existing vegetation that provides that 25 foot area of existing existing or new vegetation to help with the screening And it's hard to see there, but it has to start at at least six feet tall, correct? Correct. These are some illustrations of what our design standards that would be in place for the mixed density or multifamily buildings here. You can see that they are intended to provide for designs that mimic single-family buildings with the roof lines, entryways at the front, and driveways in similar nature to single-family homes. So the design standards are intended to achieve for the two- and three-family similar styles for single-family. And then you can see here with our four family at a scale that is appealing, meets what could be a single family structure. And then here with our multifamily dwellings as well. These are examples that are in the zoning law as illustrations, as examples, and the design standards are prepared to achieve this type of housing style. So as we continue on with the design standards, there's the building and site design. Building placement and orientation is key, particularly in the Hamlet District. There were comments at the last meeting and even tonight about our Hamlet Districts to be built as strip malls. The zoning district regulations for the Hamlet, traditional Hamlet zone. Obviously, the conversation here is about Furbus Road. the dimensional standards the setbacks the placement of buildings are exactly what are shown in this picture so in a hamlet district those buildings can only be placed up to the street and as you can see here this building on the corner is placed up to the street this illustration here on the right it shows the building placed up to the street with parking in the rear sidewalks are provided along the front of these buildings so streetscape improvements would be included as part of the developers design and site layout and so as those streetscape improvements are built. Perhaps the right-of-way of the road has to be widened so that the sidewalk is in the public right-of-way. Tried medians are put in place along the roadway. So I just want to make it clear that the strip mall comment about those strip malls being an opportunity in the Hamlet District, it's not possible based on the building location required by the zoning law, the setback required by the zoning law, and placement by the zoning law. So that's all in the dimensional requirements and bulk requirements as well, as well as our design standards. So the same section that I talked about earlier with the multifamily design standards, the Hamlet design standards for mixed-use buildings are also sharing these types of illustrations, which show what we don't want, right? So this type of flat building is discouraged. Same thing here. This kind of monotonous-looking building is discouraged. but buildings that have more interest variety variety of peak line are is what we're trying to achieve with the zoning up late and the design standards will achieve these will achieve these these these appearances an example of the Hamlet district that you know I think is close to home is our new Scotland Road area which is currently zoned as a Hamlet this is the mixed-use building on New Scotland Road that is a mixture of three stories on one side of the building here, and then it transitions to two stories on the other side of the building, and that has commercial use on the first floor and apartments on the second floor. And so this is, I think this is just a good example to show of another example of what the design standards can achieve for a hamlet setting, particularly on that Furibus Road area. This is something that's in town, so it's close to home for us to take a look at. This is the building that had the big for you in the corner tenant, and now Brushview Bagels moved in just late last year. So sharing those designs that would be reflected in the Hamlet Zone. I'd like to talk to what you're saying right now, Rob, and of course I have some other comments as well. This is not consistent with the character of Fiora Bush Road where you currently have. I'm going to ask you like I did last meeting. I appreciate that you feel some support by my comments, but please don't do that because I think it's disrespectful to my colleagues. Thank you. It's not consistent with the Fuhrer Bush Road area except for Kendall Square. And Kendall Square has its own issues. And that area is zoned currently, I believe, traditional Hamlet. But the proposed zoning is looking to extend this across the street in the open field area there and Ellesmere, you have extension. And you all heard my comments last week about what I think design standards do and don't do. I think there's some great things that they do. I think where they exist on New Scotland Avenue, and that mixed density residential and traditional Hamlet locations work. I am going to reiterate briefly what I said last week is I think the area is basically of Rockefeller Road, the Glenmont area, and the area off Blessing where we've also received a lot of community comments from short and long-term residents that changing some of those areas to mixed density residential doesn't work with low density residential does. and for traffic concerns as well. I also do not support the extended traditional Hamlet in the Glenmont area. I support returning it and where the MDRs are. I really encourage us to keep it the low-density residential. I don't because we don't have core residential for new areas like we're retaining in the old Delmar area. I think if we want to look at things again in the future, there might be a way to do it. But right now, we have a lot of traffic problems that still need to be resolved, as I said last week, before we add a lot more density. And there are a number of areas in town where mixed density residential exists, can exist, and is planned to exist. Patty, I don't think we're saying we're not having that discussion, too. I think we're just trying to walk through some of the stuff and then figure out where to go from there. So I— Gianna, thank you. And I just thought you were making comments about where it works. No, no, 100 percent. But I'm saying I want to get back to what you're saying when he gets done, too, and talk about some of those issues at more extent. I was just trying to share my comments like I thought— And I want to talk about them again. I just don't want to—I just want to—you to finish walking through, and then hopefully Hopefully we can circle back to some of those issues. No, so that was the extent of walking through the code and the different uses and densities. Yeah. Yeah, because I hear you on I think that's what we were talking about, Patty, is looking at the low density versus the mixed density, which was part of, you know, why Rob's talking about them both and how it fits in with the code. Yeah, and I think one of the things we need to remember is, right, this board is bound to implement the comprehensive plan, which was adopted, right? So we aren't just able to make arbitrary decisions because we feel one way or the other. So we have to adhere to what the plan asked us to do, told us to do. And I think the goal of this evening was to kind of walk through what some of the regulations would look like or what they currently are proposed to look like, as well as I think one of the key takeaways for me is that maybe we need to have a little bit further of a discussion of the mixed-density residential, in some of these areas as well as Rockefeller Road and see if we can ask staff to look at low density residential. And, you know, they've already kind of compared some of the charts here, but see sort of what some of the existing neighborhoods that a lot of the residents from this area specifically have come to know and love, whether it be Chadwick Square or, you know, Walden Fields, you know, some of these other projects that people really like, see what the density of those are so that we can kind of compare because those are the the most recent projects that have you know people have been very happy with and trying to understand what the density of those are and what people what is comparable if that makes sense. Ryan thank you for that and I do agree and when I made similar comments but I didn't want to repeat tonight I did speak to the comp plan and how I thought some of these changes and looking at that could work with it. So thank you. Male Speaker 1, Brian. Rob, I have a question. As you were going through your initial discussion on the NGN, I was asking questions about a proposal that could have some, you know, how it might be modified based on the limitations on the land. Could you kind of explain for us and the public then how the decision was made regarding selecting an area for the different zones, especially MDR? So the MDR was focused on areas that have access to existing sanitary sewer and water, right? So the focus of the comprehensive plan was to focus development in areas of existing infrastructure. And so these areas here along Furbus Road, Wimple Road, Elm Avenue, there's existing sewer and water, whether it's coming from the adjacent stub streets, whether it's coming from the main roads, but there's existing infrastructure, utility infrastructure in place that can support development in this area. You'll notice we didn't identify these mixed density residential zones in areas of town that don't have existing infrastructure, sewer and water. So areas like River Road or South Bethlehem that has no utility. So that's why those areas don't see this mixed density residential because the infrastructure isn't in place to support it. So how about public comment? Of course, in the planning process, we know all over we are required to have public provide side input. So in general, how would you, in terms of your experience, how do you deal with public comment when there's a tremendous amount of support one way or the other for a proposal? MR. So I think what we've undertaken is a comprehensive plan and now a zoning update to address the comprehensive plan. At both times there's been opportunity for public comment public comment now is coming at a time when we've had an opportunity to present a draft zoning update to the public right so we had this the november 18th public meeting public has come out to provide comments it's natural for them to provide comments whether it's in support or against and it's natural for this board to consider those public comments as it relates to both the comprehensive plan what we're trying to achieve and the and what the community is saying so this This is what we're experiencing is a natural process of planning and updating the zoning code. And so this isn't something that is, I would say, other communities have not experienced. This is natural in the process. You draft the code, present it in its final form, you get those public comments, and then you can address and make some revisions based on the comments you have that are coming in. Thank you. Do you want to talk to a little, and I think from what we heard, some of it was Trying to explain process and trying to put everything in one place because people felt it was piecemeal So I think that's just a little bit of what we're trying to do and then say We're having further discussions based on the comments Can the other piece you add is just re-explain how traffic comes into play and why you're not doing you know You don't do something How it works from the town perspective and a proposal perspective. Yeah, so as these as these developments that will come in should the zoning be advanced, whatever version of a zoning district and zoning update come into adoption. As the developments come in, and we saw tonight, as much as the initial formula showed, I think you said 160 units, they're only able to achieve the 99 on the lot. So the best approach is to do the traffic study based on the development proposal that comes in, understand the number of units, understand the types of units. That traffic is distributed along a certain study area. Certain intersections are looked at. That makes sense as far as where traffic is going to be distributed. And then you understand the impacts to those intersections on a delay of time. So when you look at impacts to intersections, you're really looking at how much time is somebody waiting at that intersection for if it's a stop-controlled intersection for a car on the right side to go, and then they go. If it's a signalized intersection, how much time are they waiting at a signalized intersection? And if there's too much delay, then you start to look at right turn lanes or a left turn lane. What is the improvement that will help move traffic in that area? And so some of that could be, as development occurs, it could be incremental improvements. It could be property acquisition. It could be accepting a contribution towards a future improvement. And you as the board have done that on other projects in the past. So it's not so much as we're going to wait until the intersection is completely at a poor level of service. We can accept incremental improvements so that when those improvements are needed, there's been past contributions or past designs perhaps that can achieve the ultimate final product. As I said, that could be a turn lane. It could be a traffic signal. But those are the types of improvements that could be had as a potential impact. Do you have specific examples for the area that's in question on Fairbush and maybe Fairbush and Ellesmere? As a town, do we know yet what would likely be the next steps? I'm not sure if we have that information. Yeah, Ellesmere and Furibus, so that had been looked at for some other developments. There'll be a need for turn lanes on Ellesmere. I think it's a separate right turn lane from Furibus to Ellesmere. I think a separate left turn lane from Ellesmere into Furibus. So there have been studies in the past about what that intersection would need to look like. That was actually getting back to one of the documents Leslie mentioned. but turn lane improvements at Ellesmere would be needed. There was past studies that were done for the Route 9W-Furbish intersection, and so that solution was the roundabout, and development had contributed towards construction costs for that roundabout. So there was a public cost, but there was also a share of development funds that were provided to help take on that cost. There was another example when Van Dyke Spinney Phase 4 was put in. There was some increase in delays at the Del Mar Bypass Extension and Van Dyke Road intersection, and there was a contribution of funds for a future turn lane in that area. So there's examples in both Del Mar, in both the Glenmont area, of improvements as well as funding that has been in place that the town has to advance towards future improvements. More gets done on a project when there's a proposal and it's a project specific. Exactly. When you have a developer that's proposing a project, that is a time where improvements can be had because the developer is coming in at a point where they're doing construction, they are impacting an intersection to a certain level, and so those improvements are had as based on the development of projects. When you don't have any development and you need improvements, it's a different process for achieving improvements. Some of the improvements we've seen are for multi-use paths or sidewalks. The town has to go after state funding to do that and use its own money to help support those improvements. So there's different ways of achieving transportation improvements. One is through the development side, another is through the town going after additional state funds to do that. And Rob, I'd just like to add, as part of that evaluation process, as we saw tonight, you have a scope of work for when you're establishing and evaluating traffic. And that's all prepared, reviewed. And the scope is obviously goes beyond the specific area of where the project may be located. And depending on the nature of the impacts and nature of the improvements that are necessary, All of that fits into the thought process and the calculations of a developer, and that may or may not make render a project feasible. Those improvements that you're discussing that are typically done on a variety of projects only occur if it's feasible for them to support that as part of the construction cost of the project. If it's not and they can't do that, then that can either mean a couple of things. It can mean that the project has to be revised so that that impact is avoided and that mitigation is no longer necessary. Or the project can't move forward if they feel they can't move forward in another form. So it's a decision-making process that affects, there are solutions that occur, but there's also a process of decision-making that's occurring during the review of a project, whether or not that could be feasible. And so that's just a piece of what's there. We have, as a board, this board has the authority to pose reasonable conditions on those improvements and based on the data that we're accumulating. That's why we have the traffic studies to understand specifically what can occur. Then it's up to a developer. Again, if it's turn lanes or a traffic signal, those can be very expensive improvements that may or may not be supported by a smaller scale development of the types that are being proposed in this Hamlet area. When you have something like Lowe's or Home Depot or some large Walmart going in, obviously the economics are very different. Their budgets are different. Things can be, it's a different thing altogether. These smaller developments are very sensitive to economic conditions, and it's just something that has to be taken into account. that's not part of the zoning code that's just the reality of how projects move forward yeah you have any thoughts no okay so to me what seems like it would be helpful in response to hearing what we heard at our last meeting and then going through some of this and talking you know through with the board talking through or getting some further information from staff and then having another discussion in our next meeting where we can kind of talk through the difference in this area specifically of you know the MDR zone and the LDR zone and what those how it would compare to the existing neighborhoods and then also verifying and making sure it still meets the intent of the comprehensive plan um so just so that from to do that downgrade to make sure that we're still meeting the plan because that again is the the guiding principle of the whole reason and the we were tasked from the town board to do this we were also tasked from the town board to go through the comprehensive plan process as well right so the town board had asked us to do all of these things and so we have parameters that we have to work within and so that's what we're trying to do throughout this process so does that make sense rob sure we can do that okay um any other board member questions on this i know there were some specific things we also wanted to talk through um and just mention as some follow-ups from our last meeting as well i think right rob sorry go ahead brad Are we still going to continue this discussion? Is that what you're saying? Yeah, so what I think would be helpful is to, I mean, if you have other questions now, we can certainly ask them. But what I was saying is that I think it would be helpful to get some more information from staff on the differences between the two zones, MDR and LDR, for specifically this neighborhood in Glenmont. And then to talk through it at our next meeting once we have some additional information. So what I'm hoping staff can do is look at the existing neighborhood, understand some of the density of some of the projects that have happened recently, mostly the PDD projects that have happened recently, because those are known and loved projects in this area of like, well, what's the density of those? And how would that compare to some of the density in, let's say, the LVR zone so that it's a little more understandable? To look at changing from the MDR to the LVR. So the only reason I posed the question, I've been in town for about 40 plus years, actually did look at initially at Chadwick Square when I was looking at housing. And I did another drive around, and I know there are several, like, I guess those you call cottage, because they're like four, three, four units, you know, and I think they closely meet the low density residential requirements. And, of course, so I didn't think there was any need, and given the public input and the fact that, again, we are required to have it and the strong support against it, that I think that the low-density residential would be appropriate and it would achieve the comprehensive plan requirements of diversity in housing. because it's not just strictly single-family residential, but the duplexes, triplexes, or whatever you call it, the four units, like Chadwick Square. So I was all set to say, okay, I'm agreed to support, to step back, you know, a second look. So that's the only reason why I was asking whether we need to continue this discussion. I think we're all fairly on the same board. I think that's what he's asking him to do, is come back and look at the change. Personally, I think it would just be helpful for the record, for us to have it in the record that it sounds like the majority, if not all, of the board is in support of that change, but just having some additional documentation so that we can review that at our next meeting and formulate that. And that will obviously be part of the record forward to the town board to understand, obviously, they've seen all of the comments that have been coming in. They're copied on Bethlehem Forward emails. so that they can understand why this board decided to make a modification to the original plan that we had presented back in November that I agree that building the record to show how you got from point A to point B is where you want to go it you know there's different pieces of it that are I think what we're truck what was Rob was trying to do is show how the process works so it's not just you know a green light you go do something but I think in that same process would apply in in an ldr okay that it applies in any zone but that's how you go through the zoning process and i think going through just making sure that we're meeting the standards of the comp plan and implementing the goal achieving the goals that that uh are sought or stated in the comp plan and you know we're not we're beholden to make sure that we're implementing it but you do have the authority to provide recommendations to the town board that you think are appropriate based on the comp plan the public input in your knowledge okay so does that sound like a decent approach to the board okay rob do you want to just briefly mention a couple of those other sort of yeah technical individual items yeah the other items we had were so these were specific ones that we talked about at the last meeting staff did have a chance to just go in and change the language and draft this is related to that commercial multi-use district where we were currently requiring a minimum height of 30 feet and so now what we're doing is changing the language and the design standards to state that the building shall appear to be a minimum of two stories in height unless otherwise approved as part of a site plan review and so that gives the board during the review period the opportunity to the applicant to make a case to not have a two-story building but maybe a one or one and a half story building okay so that's that's the change for that language and then we also made a change for the change for the there's some discussion about agritourism and we felt that we should be better connected with the comprehensive plan as it regards the agritourism uses and so we have added under agritourism organized meeting space used by weddings and events this just makes it clear to everyone that you know if you have a barn and you're converting it for for events that can be that is allowed in that in the agritourism definition so that there's no guesswork in whether or not you know that type of event space is allowed in on an agricultural property for agritourism. So trying to be as clear as possible so that it's predictable to everyone who's involved. Rob, the wording I'm a little concerned about, just in my opinion in a way, I think that this seems kind of limited. I would suggest or recommend that you consider, you know, rephrasing it to say organized meetings and special or celebratory events such as weddings because it could be other than weddings and the way this is written, it's just organized space used by weddings and events. What would be events? Maybe someone has a dinner, some type of farm to table dinner for agritourism. It's not a wedding. It's an event. Is it meeting space or is it meetings? Maybe you're getting hung up on meetings, like gathering, meeting. Maybe that's the definition of meeting. Maybe organized gathering space rather than meeting space? Whatever, yeah. The meeting word is the hang up? Meeting is true. Okay. Any other questions on that? If you're done with that, I had... Sorry, we're not ready for public comment yet. Oh, just want to make sure the board's good and then we'll switch over Oh, yes, and the last one was about Wetland Open space requirements. I think right did we want to talk any about that at all? So the only conversation there is The only conversation on that is to reflect on tonight's conversation about the Kimmy Point site showing the board now you know what the DC wetland regulations mean on paper right and so the areas in red were the wetlands and the areas in yellow were the wetland adjacent area otherwise known as buffer and so understanding how much of a site can be you know taken up by the buffer area what staff is proposing is to consider that as as allowable open space in the open space requirement. So we don't include any of the wetlands, the steep slopes, the floodplains in the constrained land area, but we do allow the open space to include the buffer because there is such a significant identification of these sites that have the wetlands, and you can see how the buffer starts to bleed into each other when you have wetlands that are right next to each other. So using the open space to allow the buffer area. And I say that with the understanding that there are lands in town that are within the New York State DEC jurisdiction wetland area, and there are lands in town that are outside of it. So in order to keep an even playing field for these developments, and the code requirements can apply equally to both types of locations, whether you're in the DEC area or you're out, if you allow the undisturbed buffer area to be included in open space, you're providing an even playing field for the development community as they come in with their developments. If we don't, we're going to end up treating sites that are in the DEC wetland area differently than sites that are not. So essentially the sites that are outside of the DEC wetland area would be allowed to include the buffer in their open space because technically there is no DEC regulated buffer, and those who are in the DEC wetland area would not be able to include it. So in order to, again, provide an even playing field for developments, whether you're in or you're out, include the buffer area as an allowed open space area. Not the impacted buffer, but the buffer that is going to be required to be protected. And you're not proposing to change the open space percentage, just allow the buffer area to be included in the current percentage. Is that correct? The current percentage is set at 50. We would suggest changing it to 40, knowing that that can achieve a suitable open space area along with development that can be built. So the real key conversation piece here tonight is the buffer area of the open space. Without making a change, we're going to end up treating projects differently that come before us for a cluster conservation subdivision. And Rob, one other thing I'll point out is those buffer areas are going to be, as you saw tonight, will be subject to deed restrictions. Correct. Can't be developed. So it is suitable to be accepted as open space. Right. And then if see if we didn't make a change what would happen what would happen is DEC would de-district a buffer area, and then if we kept Those buffer areas out of our allowable open space. We are now going to take more land I mean take I mean we're going to now preserve more land From development and you're not going to end up achieving development projects that can actually materialize the more land you take away That's buildable the less there is opportunity for these projects to even to even happen I know I sound as though we want to develop everything. I don't want that to be the message. What I'm trying to come across is development is going to happen in town, and we just need to manage it in a way that provides for an achievable project, but also preserving open space. If we require two separate types of open space, the buffer and then the non-area, you're going to end up taking too much land from development in order to achieve these projects. And it's not just from the developers. versus from the property owners that you'd be taking that opportunity. Yeah. And so that land is not going to be built on. Allow it to be used in the open space requirement. Rob, my recollection of this discussion last week wasn't we did not reach a conclusion for it to be there as a board. And I think Gianna and I in particular had some strong comments about that. And I don't think it can be so black and white. I think it has to be analyzed per project. And I think we have an obligation with wetland protections and to follow the DEC regulations. And the definition of open space is less than clear in the way we're using it right in this very moment because we're considering the land around the farm that was preserved a couple of years ago as open space. The North Street area that the town is about to buy is open space, which is maybe usable, maybe areas for high school track teams, which is not something a wetland should necessarily be. It depends on how the use gets determined and established. And so to just include that with kind of the way I'm reading this blanket statement feels a bit concerning to me. Just to be clear, we are following DEC guidelines and regulations. This is a zoning calculation done outside of the DEC regulations. We're not saying we're treating the wetlands differently. We're not allowing impacts that the DEC wouldn't allow. We're following the DEC rules. This is a zoning, and I'm trying to explain it for everybody, but the this is a zoning calculation to determine what lands or what percentage of lands can be qualified as open space we're excluding certain dec regulated areas from that calculation but we're allowing area what rob is proposing is the to allow areas of adjacent area that are not disturbed to be included in that open space calculation and that there are two very different things and i just wanted to clarify that there we are not we are following dec regulations as they explained tonight and they showed the calculations and how they came to the numbers and what it was that is in accordance with dec's regulations when they're applying for a permit a general permit in this case but that's the permitted use or permitted impact is is an allowed thing and it's consistent and complies with the regulations. So I just want to be clear so that people don't think we're lessening the impacts to the wetlands. We're not. We're preserving them, and this is a zoning calculation. The improvements, the impacts need to still avoid, mitigate, and minimize all of those areas and things. I just wanted to be clear on that. Yeah, Patty, I see it a little differently because DEC is going to do the work for us. the protocol that they've been setting up, they're identifying two types of buffer areas, disturbed and undisturbed. And it would be, my concern was if we allowed the buffer areas to be considered open space, How do you define what's going to happen in those different buffer areas? So with the DEC protocol, it's very simple. We can allow the undisturbed open space, undisturbed buffer area to be open space. Absolutely. Period. So I think it works very well. And that's all I was proposing was the undisturbed buffer area to be included in the open space, not the disturbed area. And with the increase in the required open space, I think it works very well. So I'm all for it. You mean with the keeping the 50% or are you changing it to 40? The 50%. So are you keeping it at 50? I'd like to consider the 40. I think, The current code is at 40. The current conservation subdivision regs are at 40. 40%. But the current conservation subdivision regs allow both the mix of the wetlands, the floodplains. What our goal was on this whole cluster conservation subdivision was to get away from accepting the constrained lands as the allowed open space. And so keeping the 40 gives us guaranteed unconstrained open space in this new formula. So previously, we didn't know what we were going to get. Now we're saying we want 40%, and the only quasi-constrained land you can include is the buffer area. We're not going to accept any wetlands. We're not going to accept any steep slopes. You can give them to us and include them, but they're not going to be counted to for the requirement. But, Scott, are you saying you want the 50% or are you good with the 40%? No, I'm fine with 40%. I was just curious. Yeah, I support 40% as well. And as you mentioned, Rob, this is still an improvement on the way we currently calculate it. Correct. Correct. This is guaranteeing us the buildable area to be included as open space. Today we don't have that. We were going to set out to change that from the start. Correct. It was always the plan. I'm just saying it's still an improvement to what we have currently. I think the other point just to make is that because of the change in the DEC regs, there's so many more wetlands now that are being classified as DEC wetlands with additional buffer areas. you're capturing a lot more land anyway. So that undisturbed adjacent area is going to be much greater than it would have been previously. So I think I heard we have a majority. I was going to say, I don't think it matters. Correct. We have a majority to go with the 40% and as Scott mentioned, the undisturbed buffer, not the disturbed buffer. Right? Okay. All right. With that, I believe we are done with the board discussion. So at this point, we're going to open it up to public comment. Just like all of our meetings, public comment is limited to three to five minutes. I will tell you when you've hit three minutes, and at five minutes I will ask you to step down for the next person to speak. So come on up to the microphone and identify yourself, please. The man in the green jacket was itching to go, so. Okay. Okay. Good evening. Sorry for the interruption before. You're fine. I'm here to talk about the Rockefeller plot. Closer. Could you identify yourself and just come a little closer? My name's Kevin Donovan. I live on Pine Tree Drive. It's a street of four houses. It dead ends at the Rockefeller Plot, which is 20 acres and zoned single family, and it could accommodate 42 homes. the developer tried multiple times to obtain PDDs for denser housing and each time those development proposals were not allowed by the town the last time was town was before the town board and the town board rejected it and told them not to come back unless they had a development proposal that was more in tune with the character of the local community and that was the the pine tree Drive read Mason area which is single-family homes and it also runs down Lavery and mate and Mason which also have some duplexes That property can hold 42 single-family homes. The development proposal that was rejected was for 70 homes. Under the proposed zoning, which is in the comprehensive plan, it would be a multi-density that would be probably more than 70 units, which was rejected by the town. Another major concern we have is that the town would prefer that if the development were put in Pine Tree Drive would be connected to the Rockefeller Road project and that would mean all that traffic would cut through from that development through Pine Tree and down Reed and all the way down East Poplar and that's where my son and his wife and my granddaughters live and I walk down there and I see joggers I see bicyclists I see mothers and fathers with their children walking and I see cars I see some cars now and I've listened to the other speakers tonight talk about the traffic that happens when roads are joined and and I know that there will be more of that happening if pine tree is connected into that area. And I hear people say, well, you know, you look at how, what will happen with traffic planning and you can direct how people will go. Well, I'll tell you how people will go. They will go how their phone tells them to go. And they will say, oh, the fastest way to travel from the nursing home over to CVS is, hmm, It's the cut through through Pine Tree Drive. The fastest way to go to Albany is the cut through through Pine Tree Drive. That's what we're going to do. Oh, the UPS driver, the fastest way is the cut through through Pine Tree Drive. So that's what's going to happen. and now I hear tonight that because it won't be part of the cost of the project they won't be putting in sidewalks or accommodations for bicycles there are no sidewalks anywhere in that area every night every evening when I see my granddaughter getting off the bus there everyone is all the mothers all the fathers and the little siblings of the kids waiting to see their older sisters or brothers get up. Thanks very much. They're standing there along the side of the road waiting, and then they're walking in the road as the cars are driving along. So traffic is a very serious concern. I noted in watching the tape in the March 18, 2025 meeting, the consultant explained six areas why rezoning was necessary. The consultant didn't explain why rezoning was necessary for the Rockefeller Road area. Why was that area across Rockefeller Road necessary to be zoned from single-family to multi-district. I think it's very curious that the developer was unable to obtain a PDD for high-density zoning, but now that a zoning change is being done in town, that is being enabled. I brought for you all copies of a letter that I've written on this topic that contains a lot more information. I'd like to bring it up to you. Thank you for your time and consideration. Thank you. So I think you all know me by now. I'm Colleen Scott. I live at 29 Jefferson Road. I had drafted some comments, but after listening to your discussion, I have additional comments. so this might be a little all over the place. As far as the wetlands, and it sounds like you might have already voted on this or you're going to vote on this, but DEC regulations are a minimum of what you need to do. It doesn't mean that you need to stick to that. This town prioritizes open space, or at least it says it does in the comp plan, so that's something I'd like you to consider. I heard you when you said that your task is to adhere to the comp plan and to advance that, but development is not the only priority of the comp plan, so I would like you to consider that. Also, I'm concerned by when you say, well, we have to approve something, we have to approve something. You guys are sitting here now, but it could be a totally different group of people three years from now with totally different opinions. That's why it's important that things are clear in the zoning code. And if you have the public saying that they're really adamantly against something, it requires consideration, which I hear that you're going to do, so I appreciate that. As far as traffic, we've mentioned this multiple times. There's not really room to create a turn lane, at least not at Wemple and Fioribush. and if these projects were to or these you know proposed rezoning was to go through it would create more traffic it would create a problem your last thing that we all sat through when we lost half the room because we all sat through it um decided to study from july of 2020 that's the beginning of the pandemic nobody was going anywhere everybody was home so that's concerning um and the solution that you identified with the roundabout somebody i think it was rob that was explaining it, has been a nightmare in Glenmont. My mother just the other day saw a truck up on the middle of the thing. A girl was hit there and had a serious head injury from that. It's not been a solution, at least not to those of us that know what goes on there every day. As far as public input, I appreciate your examples, and I'll talk a little bit more about that, but this is the second time I heard a gentleman, I don't know this man, but that's the second time I heard him say that he doesn't get notifications despite trying to get notifications. I myself have emailed multiple times, very rarely receive a response, did not receive the bulk response that I know Rad asked last time if everybody would receive, and it could be an error, but there's been a lot of errors with communication, at least with regard to me. None of the pictures that you showed, even the encouraged ones, look like what our neighborhood looks like now or what we want it to look like. And the New Scotland Hamlet is surrounded by commercial property. It's not in the middle of homes. So I don't consider that to be the same. Alright, so that was related to what all you said tonight. I'll try to get through these without getting cut off. The board appears to be prioritizing certain elements of the comp plan, specifically mixed density housing, while essentially ignoring others, maintaining the character and charm of the town in harmony with nature. We keep hearing that the town is a desirable place to live and that growth is necessary. Most residents understand that and we're not asking that there be no development. We're asking that development be permitted in a way that doesn't negatively impact current residents. You've heard multiple times from other people, we don't want to be the next colony or Clifton Park. That's what occurs when unbridled residential and commercial development is permitted. Both town staff and planning board members have cited affordability reasons for the mixed density residential designations being necessary. The most recent mixed density development in Glenmount was the residence inn at Wemple Road. That starts at $2,245 a month for the smallest apartment that's there. Affordable housing guidelines are no more than one-third of someone's income, and that's supposed to include utilities. That means a person would have to earn a minimum of $90,000 a year to live there, which would be difficult for a lot of older adults and young professionals just starting their careers, which is what you've said the target demographic for that type of housing would be. Also, I'm told that Bethlehem's definition of affordable housing is 60% of the median income of Albany County, given that the median income of Albany County is around $83,000. 60% of that would be $49,800. You can see how they would not be able to afford the apartment that I just described. You've heard a lot about traffic concerns. The proposed traditional hamlet would significantly increase that. And the comp plan talks about increasing goods and services in a walkable distance. Feuerbush has no continuous sidewalks, no walk signals for crosswalks, no speed countersign like exists on Kenwood to slow traffic, all of which have been requested multiple times and have not been implemented. So those are real concerns for us with a hamlet. I've been very critical about public engagement around this topic. I do understand the board has been working on this plan for quite some time prior to us being aware of it and how it would affect our lives. I can only say that mailers that are not specific do not garner the attention of people who are busy trying to balance jobs, kids, caregiving, aging parents, etc. It would have been helpful if specific information were mailed directly to property owners whose property abuts the land to be rezoned. It would have been helpful to ensure that every area of the town was represented when developing the comp plan, and it would have been helpful if there were committees formed earlier in this process with residents who would be impacted so that they could have given input before you got to this point. I do understand the Board's frustration with public comment at this stage of the process, but I also find it imperative that as elected and appointed officials charged with representing us, that our feedback and our comments are taken carefully into consideration and deserve more discussion before any recommendation is made. Thank you. Thank you. If you pull the whole black piece down under the microphone. Here? Yeah, just push down. There you go. Thank you. My name is Jim McQuide. I live at 6 Newell Lane in Glenmont. Newell Lane is part of Newell Place, a cottage-style subdivision consisting of three streets. I want to comment, and I am the president of the HOA board of Newell Place. I want to comment specifically on the proposed hamlet added to Furebush. that hamlet as you propose it is going to run from Ellesmere Avenue to Wemple not including the firehouse on the other side that directly abuts Newell Lane the depth of that hamlet will surround five houses on Newell Lane such that their backyards will directly abut into the hamlet I heard a lot tonight about transition zones on mixed use and low density and mixed density housing. I didn't hear anything that I recall about transition zones if you're going to run a hamlet directly into a neighborhood. it. It's my opinion that that Hamlet, the way you propose it, is going to have a direct impact on the quality of life of the people on Newell Lane and ultimately in Newell Place. And I don't think that's the type of thing that the residents of Glenmount want to do. In my opinion, as the president of the HOA board, the most direct impact adversely of the Hamlet proposal is on Newell Place. We did not sign up for that when we all bought houses there. There was no discussion about a possible Hamlet. I don't think it needs to be extended to impact Newell Place all the way down to Wemple Road. Thank you for your attention. I did submit comments of more depth to all of you, and I hope you'll take into consideration of that hamlet being at least shortened, if not removed. Thank you very much. Thank you. Hi, everybody. I'm Karen Harmon. I'm at 55 Brightonwood Road in Glenmont, and I've been here last time. But anyway, this has been a real learning process tonight, And I actually really appreciate it because I don't know anything about the planning process. And so what you guys were saying, you know, what you guys were doing, explaining everything was very helpful. And, you know, I feel like I just went to a little class for the night. So anyway, you know, I just want to emphasize that my neighbors and I are not arguing for no development because we understand that some development is inevitable. evitable. We are, however, opposed to the zoning changes in Glenmont along Fjordbush Road, which is fast becoming oversaturated because we deal with the traffic every day. Actually, I didn't even think about Newell Place, but what Jim was just saying made a lot of sense. I can really see that that would be a really big problem for them. I respectfully urge you to pause all proposed rezoning in Glenmont until you undertake a fresh review of what's happening with the traffic on Fearbush Road. And actually, I was actually very encouraged by your discussion here tonight where you talked back and forth about concerns about maybe keeping things the way it is, low density. We're very opposed to the mixed density. Okay? And I think it was very encouraging the way you guys talk, like you really are trying to think things through and trying to do the right thing. So I think that's really great. The traffic studies that you guys are relying on are outdated. Things have changed in the last two years. We who live there know that in the last three years alone, traffic on Furebush is really terrible. You know, it really is. And we live on Brightonwood. We're a major cut through, you know. So, let's see. And it's increasingly difficult to turn left on either side of Furebush Road. When you're coming out, you have to wait and wait for the traffic. And the roundabout, I think the roundabout actually is very beneficial, but it is clearly too small at this point, you know, just based on the existing traffic. So I can't even imagine how it's going to be with all the proposed development going on. So I guess there was so much coming at me, it's hard to keep track. But the other thing, I just wanted to mention that somebody commented that all vacant land ultimately will be built up. I hope that's not the case because we love Glenmont the way it is and the open spaces. and I understand that you have to do building but priority two is the open space. So I really hope that we can do a little better job of trying to keep that going. And so when you talk about updating the traffic studies for certain neighborhoods, I think that's wonderful because certainly our neighborhood is impacted but the overall impact is also on what comes into Feuerbush Road. So anyway, thank you very much and I appreciate your time. Thank you. My name is Bruce Grossman, 56 Commonwealth Drive. I really appreciate the discussion, your discussion today, your listening, your understanding. You took the wind out of my sails with a lot of what I was going to say here because of that discussion. I hope that you understand that the Hamlet district is just not good for Fiora Bush. And even the Kendall Square part is already a Hamlet district, but you can rezone that as mixed density. If you want to cut the trees down up until Hewitt's and put more Kendall Square, go ahead and do that. You've already done your due diligence because you have several storefronts already in that area with apartments above them. So you don't have to go any further as far as that's concerned. If you've ever been on Ellesmere at 5.30, coming down towards Fiora Bush, trying to make the left turn, you can spend five, seven minutes trying to make that turn. And it's going to be very difficult to do a left turn lane into a one lane road. So that's going to be a real problem. Chadwick Square is a wonderful place to live. We have up to five residences together. I'm sure Walden Fields has two. These are the kind of residences that would fit in as a continuation in those areas. But I think that you really have to nail down each of those lots to decide what exactly you want to do. And don't leave it open to just, you know, mixed density. Because there's going to be some builders, when you're not around anymore as a board, these lots are not available. They may not be available for 10 years. And they're going to see a mixed density. And they're going to build what's already done at Kendall Square. You're going to have these cookie cutter buildings that are three stories, and that's what's going to end up on those lots, unless you nail down exactly what you want to do. Now, we live in the area. We're available to you. We walk those areas. We look at the cows. We sit in our backyard. We know what those properties look like. We could be helpful. Let us all work together to make Bethlehem a better place. Thank you. Thank you. Hi, my name is Oscar Harmon. I'm the husband of Karen Harmon, who was just speaking a moment ago. And I'm not as familiar with all these issues as she is. I'm just coming in from the outside. I wasn't here at the last meeting. But as I was thinking about this and as coming over here, I was reflecting on how much open space we have here in Glenmont. We have a number of farms still there and I know that, I think I'm right, that you're thinking of changing the zoning from that is around that farm or governs that farm to something that's much more high density. And I'd just like you to encourage you to think about, we have values in our assessment laws. And so we are, we provide very favorable rates to farmers. And why do we do that? Because we, you know, are respecting their rights. They lived there for a long time. And then this development has come along and we don't want to force them out. So we have a values for that. And so we also value their open land. And that's why we do it. So it's part of a community property. And so I'd like to have you think about that and have you think about the people who moved in and owned property next to them. And they value that open space and also maybe they are worthy of consideration for their values so that they sort of don't have a legal right, but maybe we have a moral right like we do to the farmers that are there to preserve the environment that they've lived in for many years and not force them out in many ways to be in a community they don't, that isn't what they signed up for. I came from New Jersey, Leone, Anglewood, and as I was coming up here, that line of traffic up Ellesmere reminded me because it was just bumper to bumper, all white lights coming down, what I grew up in. But part of why I came up here was so that I could have a more rural type of area for my kids and so forth. And so I'd just like you to think about why people are here. The farmers were here, and we respected their sort of right, in a way, moral right, to have property and live on it the way they had got accustomed to. And so we changed it so that we didn't, we sacrificed the amount of money we could have collected from them. We didn't have to have all this development that I think you're really, you know, you're younger and that's what you want to do. And I understand that. But I'm just, you know, having you try to think about the older values that we have here. And, you know, and that's what I'd like to have you think about. Anyway, thank you for your time. I appreciate that. And good luck to you. Thank you. Hello. My name is Cynthia Fox. I live at 18 Sussex Road in Glenmont. And I want to also thank you very much for tonight's meeting. It's been very long, but really very informative. And I really appreciate understanding a little bit better what you do and the input process and everything else. So I have lived in Glenmont for 20 years. I've always, before Glenmont, lived in a city. I grew up in Buffalo, then I lived in Albany. And I didn't want to move. I was happy where I was, but my husband didn't like living in the city. So out we moved to Glenmont, and we found this great place, really great place. We are actually right next to the farm. So I see the cows out my window. Anyway, when we were talking about this recently, he said to me, you know, when we moved here, you complained that it wasn't walkable. And I said, oh, yeah, you're right, I did. But I have come to appreciate the other aspects besides the walkability. And then, so today before this meeting, I looked up what it means. What does it mean to be walkable anyway? Well, I walk in my neighborhood all the time. All the time. I also walk down Fiora Bush, now that we have sidewalks, to mail a letter, to poke around marshals, and I guess now Trader Joe's, right? So I don't understand when I read in the response to the comments, I read something that says the Hamlet expansion was discussed and included on the future land use map during the 2022 comprehensive plan update and included in the final adopted plan. There is a lack of neighborhood goods and services within comfortable walking distance of this area. The zoning update allows smart growth principles to guide development in areas served by public watershed, blah, blah, blah, blah. But anyway, my point is we have so many goods and services right down the street, and we're getting more and more. So I don't see why we need another commercial area, you know, a mile down the street from where all of this development, commercial development, is going on. I don't need to walk in another direction to go to the grocery store to go. And even if you take the argument that you're not going to walk that one mile between my house and all of those areas right there, why would I want to walk down a street to go to some store that I could drive down and do all of my shopping right there? So I guess the last thing I would say is I don't really understand. And there was some reference just earlier to the problems with Kendall Square. Kendall Square, it has a commercial element that is totally not anything that anybody would want to, oh, I'm going to go take a walk and I'm going to go visit the tire store, right? So in terms of the character of our neighborhood, our needs, we do not need more commercial development on Fiora Bush Road. And we need to preserve what makes this part of Glenmont so nice. So that's all. Thank you very much for your attention. Thank you. Hi. Good evening. I will start, too, by saying thank you. I was here at the last meeting. You seem to have – Can you just identify yourself? Oh, I'm so sorry. It's okay. Sorry. Colleen Trailing. I live on Hancock Drive in the corner of Hancock and Manor Drive. So, to get back to what I was saying, thank you for your openness. There was certainly a change. I felt that you were listening and taking into consideration everybody's concerns. One thing I wanted to ask, I didn't hear any talk tonight about what you want to do with the stub streets and how that would impact traffic into our neighborhoods, mine Bicentennial Woods we have the people at Brightonwood and that could really really really affect our families with those little kids and I think it's important that we all have an idea of what's gonna happen to those dead-end streets I live houses down from the one night is on the intersection of Jefferson and Hancock. I have next-door neighbors that have two little boys. It's really concerning, that kind of traffic that's going to come through the neighborhood. My other thought that I just got to say is I think, you know, everybody here has made the point that we understand development's going to happen. We also all agree on that we are bursting at the seams. We don't even have that restaurant built yet that's in the Marshall's Plaza. Just imagine once that's up and everybody's going over for dinner and the traffic that that's going to bring. And I think no one would argue the point about the development if this was going to be a development in that area for senior housing. Senior housing would not bring the kind of traffic that we're talking about with the zoning that we have for this area. We are an aging population. We could really use that kind of development. And that would have solved, I think, a lot of this concern that we're dealing with now about the traffic on pure Bush Road and into our neighborhoods because a senior housing development wouldn't bring it, and I think you wouldn't get all this pushback if that was different. So my point just is, we're reasonable people. It's not that we're saying you can't do it, you can't do it, but our concerns are valid, particularly about this, for us who are worried about the traffic. Please, I hope you listen. Thank you. Thank you. Phil Stevens for Holbrook Way. I'll be real brief. Sat through the whole meeting, an hour and a half we probably spent on traffic. The whole time I'm getting updates by the school district. We're going to be moving kids here. We have this plan, that plan. and talking about changing the density of all the areas which will funnel into Fairbush Road most of them it just doesn't add up I don't get it and I want one question that you know whether somebody email me or answer after the board if we're talking about like you're talking about where I live to change it to you you can have two or three dwellings I think it's res a to low density what prevents someone from changing their house or upgrading their house maybe I missed it I apologize if I did what will prevent somebody if they wanted to modify their house or demolish their house and then put a new structure in is there something maybe I missed it in the zoning I apologize but if somebody could just fill me in on that so because I you know that's one that would be really discouraging. All of a sudden, you know, Bill Smith down the road is going to demolish his house, and he's going to build a three-family dwelling and move to Boca Raton and collect on the rent. So that's all I have. Thank you for all your work you've done. Thank you. Anyone else this evening? Hi, my name is Christine Lanchanson. I live on Criskin Drive in Glenmont. Just two quick comments. some that was referenced at the traffic study from 2017 and I know you're not going to use that but traffic study from 2020 still will not be anything near what we have today please get a recent traffic study because Glenmont is the traffic is crazy I live you coming out of of a beacon road you can't get on to 9w taking a left it is almost impossible now that the traffic circle is in because it's a constant stream of cars. So that's not, and you're looking at that property right behind us and it's going to just make it worse. Also, I just want to clarify something. You were talking about disturbed and undisturbed buffer land. I don't think that is, there is such a thing. It's the wetlands and there's buffer. There's no disturbed and undisturbed buffer. I do some real estate law, so I'm not aware of disturbed and undisturbed. Can you show us on that map what was disturbed and undisturbed in a buffer zone? We can maybe talk to you after. This is not a back and forth. Yeah, no, I understand. But that, I think, needs to be clarified because I think that I don't think there is such a thing. We can answer you right after. Okay. Or for the next one. That would be great. The Kendall Square, just one comment on that. I mean, if we're looking at something similar to that, that's like a failure. No one goes to those stores. Are there even stores in there? Is it full? You know, if that's our model, that's a problem because it wasn't a successful model. So again, as others have said, not against development, but I want it to be planned. I want it to be the same as what we are now. We moved to Glenmont 36 years ago, and it's changed a lot since then, but it's still got that country, homey, community feel, and we don't want to lose that. And if you start putting these in in three-story, five-story, five-family homes, it's going to change that feel. So please, please consider how we feel. Thank you. Thank you. All right, seeing no more, at this point we will table this for this evening, and we will look to have this topic brought up at a future meeting. Thank you, Molly, for joining us this evening. Just looking at the agenda, any new business this evening? No? Okay. Can I have a motion to adjourn? First by Chiana, I will second. All in favor? Aye. Aye. The meeting is adjourned. Thank you, everyone. Thank you for coming and providing comments. Thank you.","segments":[{"start":10.62,"end":13.42,"text":"Thank you.","words":[{"w":"Thank","start":10.62,"end":12.02,"p":0.1242},{"w":"you.","start":12.02,"end":13.42,"p":0.9976}],"avg_logprob":-0.6227,"no_speech_prob":0,"compression_ratio":0.5556},{"start":32.26,"end":33.24,"text":"Debbie, are you ready?","words":[{"w":"Debbie,","start":32.26,"end":32.78,"p":0.623},{"w":"are","start":32.94,"end":32.96,"p":0.9985},{"w":"you","start":32.96,"end":33.06,"p":1},{"w":"ready?","start":33.06,"end":33.24,"p":0.9995}],"avg_logprob":-0.1644,"no_speech_prob":0,"compression_ratio":1.5977},{"start":34.78,"end":35.3,"text":"Okay.","words":[{"w":"Okay.","start":34.78,"end":35.3,"p":0.9595}],"avg_logprob":-0.1644,"no_speech_prob":0,"compression_ratio":1.5977},{"start":35.64,"end":39.38,"text":"Good evening and welcome to the January 6th meeting of the Bethlehem Planning 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